Thread: safe to compress powder during reload?

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
46.5 grains of AR2209 with the 174 grain is pretty much max with the current faster lots of AR2209 and I doubt if you will get away with neck sizing at that level. The Hodgdons data is quite old and ADI listed 47 grains max in 2000 which is definitely the slower powder. I would likely start at 42 grains, chronograph and look for the primers backed out of the case. This shows you are not stretching the cases.
GPM

This is not true. I have very old 2209 and new 2209 and use both. The current load data from both ADI and Hodgdon is for the current powder.
(Using the old powder I have to add 1.5 - 2 grains to come up to modern data velocities)

(Anyway, he didnt say what rifle he had, but I am betting with 46.5 grains he is not getting anywhere near 2569 fps.)

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

If you are unsure of scales....keep a couple of lighter projectiles on hand.a fifty grain 223 projectiles will do nicely.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Why are you loading up so close to book maximum if your just starting to reload??? You have asked questions and been told by many,the 303 Brit is hard on brass,keep loads mild.

Well im still alive and fired my first reloads this afternoon! I must say im pretty chuffed for my first go at this!
I have nothing to fault about this load, but will ask any questions relating to what I experienced in my other thread.
I know its a high load, but as I said earlier, im wanting something close to a factory military load and our club shoot is next weekend.
Anyway, I'm obviously still trying to be careful and done a ton of research and asking questions here before going ahead, so far most of the information I've been reading on forums appears accurate and cross referencing various manuals seems to suggest my loads are not too heavy.

Now as far as the performance of these go, I would say that the recoil was far less than a factory HXP round.
Seems that AR2209 has a fair bit of recoil according to peoples posts, but from my experience, its not that bad.

I suspect the HXP stuff has a more fast burning powder and I can hear some space when shaking them round.
There is some talk that IMR 3031 is a closer spec powder to cordite and I would like to try it out if I could get my hands on some, but I do know that it has far more potential to stretch cases.
I had been reading some discussion on another thread here that @Cordite was commenting in, suggests my that the velocity im trying to achieve should not be too hard on cases, providing im using a slow powder like I am.
Another member is quoting 11+ reloads with my powder at FULL load and only the occasional annual.
For now i see no reasons to lower my load, and im confident that im using the scales correctly, my next step is to set up my powder thrower and compare loads, because its super slow going with the scales.

I should point out im starting out with some real shit HXP brass too.
They all polished up ok in the tumbler, but one must have had some bad corrosion and split while seating the projectile.
The ones I fires experienced no splitting however.
Here is the link to the thread im referring to:
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....-query-109944/

Originally Posted by John Duxbury

You're fine. I load 48.0 grains of 2209 in my .303 with a 180 grain bullet (for 2415fps). And I wouldn't even consider that a max load in my rifle.

In general compressing powder is no issue. I have loaded cases just using the cartridge as a scoop and loading it right full up to the case mouth, and seating a bullet top on that.

You can compress it as much as you like right up until:
By doing so the pressure you use distorts the case itself, or until you have so much powder compression that neck tension will not hold the bullet in place.
(In the last case, you load your cartridges, measure their OAL, and then leave them overnight. Measure them again in the morning and if they are longer than they were before, the powder is pushing the bullet out.)

That seems to be in line with what others are saying too.
I would imagine that a 48 grain load would be pretty close to the brim, would make reloading super easy if thats all i had to do!
Seems that these slow burning powders take up much more volume and some are reporting that such loads sometimes dont even fit in a high quality brass case if its heavy brass.
I will check the length in the morning, what you say did have me concerned at first, as i had some projectiles that did not appear to be fully seated, but what was happening was the bullet was getting jammed in the seating die and when i lowered the case from the die, it was pulling it out slightly, i had one bullet stuck in the die and I had to remove it. Im not sure if it was lack of use, but its come right now.

Originally Posted by Pommy

Hear this from you a lot. I don't think it's particularly helpful. The 2209 data is still fine to follow otherwise you'd think ADI would have removed or revised it. Same goes for 8208 too.

Just work up and watch the velocity OP. Reloading 101.

Ive read some other threads about this, and this is just pure speculation at this point, but its suggested that manufacturers in recent have lowered the loads in their more recent published data due to the age of these rifles on the side of caution.
Yes im hoping i can get these on the chronograph in the weekend.
I might make a few loads higher and lower to compare too.

Iv found you need to anneal hxp brass other wise the neck doesnt size down

Originally Posted by blip

Iv found you need to anneal hxp brass other wise the neck doesnt size down

My once fired cases necked down fine with the Full Length die, but that's only after the first firing.
HXP is all annealed from factory, so I would have thought that you should be able to get away with one reload before needing an anneal.
I plan to anneal every second reload and am going to build a 3D printed induction annealer.

Originally Posted by blip

Iv found you need to anneal hxp brass other wise the neck doesnt size down

Anneal all brass. Every time. I shagged around until got set back to chamber.

You anneal this brass every time you neck size it?

I think if ADI changed the burn rate of a powder they would rename it and provide new load data.

They test every lot for consistant burn rate to ensure they are within parameters.

@Old_School I went looking for 3031 recently including posting here. I was about to get it shipped from Kelly Country (very helpful folk those) then found out very own Magnum Sports in Stratford had a tub (super helpful small local store). Dave there told me it still dribbles in. I paid $120 odd IIRC. It was the first powder I ever bought, for 303b using a whackamole in my far gone twenties. Wonderful stuff across a plethora of calibres. Might not be the fastest velocities you'll ever get but what you shoot won't notice and its not far off. Just keep asking around. Or put your hand up at your local.

Originally Posted by Jhon

@Old_School I went looking for 3031 recently including posting here. I was about to get it shipped from Kelly Country (very helpful folk those) then found out very own Magnum Sports in Stratford had a tub (super helpful small local store). Dave there told me it still dribbles in. I paid $120 odd IIRC. It was the first powder I ever bought, for 303b using a whackamole in my far gone twenties. Wonderful stuff across a plethora of calibres. Might not be the fastest velocities you'll ever get but what you shoot won't notice and its not far off. Just keep asking around. Or put your hand up at your local.

Yes Kelly country stock it and going by the comments on other threads, they seem very obliging to have it shipped to a dealer handy to you.
I would like to hear others experiences with this powder in 303 first before I go and buy some, particularly in relation to case life, but from what I can gather, its got a very similar burn rate to cordite loads. I would like a sample if someone in my neck of the woods has some.

The other question I have is how burn rates affect ballistic performance, in other words, does it matter what powder and/or load I use, if I can match each loads muzzle velocity on a chronograph, will this affect the ballistics and target placement?

I think its to do with the pressure curve. I think I was using 2206 or 2208 in my 303s. The accuracy would have to be pretty bad before you noticed it in an enfield if thats what you shooting. Extra bonus if the pills dont go sideways through the target

Originally Posted by Old_School

The other question I have is how burn rates affect ballistic performance, in other words, does it matter what powder and/or load I use, if I can match each loads muzzle velocity on a chronograph, will this affect the ballistics and target placement?

External ballistics, not in the slightest. 2440fps with 2209 gives the bullet the same trajectory as 2440fps with 2208, 2206h... that much doesn't matter.

But you may find one of those powders to give better groups than the others on paper, if you were to do a shootout between them all.

And you may find that you get a different recoil impulse from one powder to the next. This can be enough to affect the POI, shifting the entire group. So you might pick the one that shoots to the same point as factory ammo or for whatever you have it zeroed with for simplicity - even it's perhaps the not the most accurate or consistent.

A lot of mights, cans, perhaps, and maybes there. There's no guarantees and it's difficult to predict what you would see in your rifle.

Originally Posted by Oldbloke

I think if ADI changed the burn rate of a powder they would rename it and provide new load data.

They test every lot for consistant burn rate to ensure they are within parameters.

Greetings,
You would like to think so but that is not what happened. Around 2019 I was working up some loads for my new 6.5x55 when I got some odd results with a new container of AR2209 powder. I still had some 1,991 and 2,000 lots of AR2209 so I set up a test. Each lot was tested with a standard load with both the 120 grain Sierra FB and the 129 Hornady SST. Velocities for the two older lots of powder were near identical and very close to the Hodgdon data, but the newer lot gave an additional 70 to 80 fps for both projectiles. Later I found mention of the speed change on the net dated around 2002. Even today the data on the Hornady, ADI site data is for the older and slower powder. This was a careful test where everything was the same other than the powder lot.
Regards GPM.

Please stop.

You have to be aware of the potential for lot to lot variations with every new production run of powder anyway. E.g. I've had some 45-70 gain 150fps with a fresh batch of AR2207.

It really doesn't matter and the data is still fine to follow.

Originally Posted by John Duxbury

You anneal this brass every time you neck size it?

For the 303 I FLS.

Originally Posted by Old_School

I've loaded this 303 case with 46.5 grains of AR2209.
Is this normal here? See photo attached.
The powder takes almost up to halfway in the neck.
46.9 grains is supposed to be the maximum load for this cartridge and projectile, so im getting close.
Am using 174 grain projectiles.
I have compared my load on 2 sets of scales and the second scale reads even less, but they are so damn sensitive that a single granule of powder is enough to change the reading, making it impossible to get both zeroed the same.
I read that some heavier brass can't always fit a load, this is HXP.Attachment 280391

Use a powder funnel with a long drop tube and use a slow pour or a bit of a shake to tip the powder from the scale pan into the funnel, you will find the powder settles lower in the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc5S8gub30g

https://ozarkprecisionnz.co.nz/shop/...ubes-adapters/