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Hi guys I am relatively new to reloading centrefire rifle rounds and I was contemplating pulling projectiles from F4 7.62 ball ammo and replacing it with 150 gr SSTs and it would be great to get your input as to the suitability of this task
Cheers Kylie
People have been doing this forever
I’d suggest you necksize before seating the SST’s
Just be aware that some of the military surplus 7.62x51can be quite hot and I have found that I get significant over pressure doing this.
I would suggest starting off a few grains lighter than what's in there and working your way up.
That ammo is fairly warm. Would pay to follow the old recommendation of substitution of same weight or next weight down. Eg. either 145 gr or go down to 130gr. Been doing it with this ammo, MEN and Norinco for a few years now, generally use Hornady 130 sp. Good practice would be to knock powder back a few grains, test in rifle and maybe work back up. You’re going up in projectile weight remember.
Cheers guys I was looking at doing maybe 400-500 once I have settled on a load as I have heaps of the MEN 85 ammo that I want to re-purpose
My suggestion would be that it would be better in terms of results vs time invested to get 100 new cases, and start loading from there. If you have surplus F4 ball, sell it off and use the funds to reinvest. Remember, military ball ammo does not have a 'recipe' like sporting own-reloaded ammo. They use a bulk lot of powder during each lot number run, and test each lot of powder to get the amount required for the performance they need with each lot number of primers, bullets and case runs. This means that there could quite likely be variations between different lots of ammo, and worse case scenario is that over the subsequent years that ammo might have been mixed and blended so several different lot numbers might be in the same package. The best option you can get is like the MEN or the South African sealed plastic packs so you know it's most likely all the same recipe. But then you don't know if the factory has used several different bulk powder lots and the change over just happened to be in the same ammo lot number in the bag you've just opened... Military ammo is loaded to achieve safe reliable operation with 'X' weight of projectile travelling at 'Y' velocity with a specification for critical dimensions. Peak pressures and in-chamber performance can vary over the various lots.
The projectiles in F4 7.62x51 are .3075" not .308", so lowering the powder charge is a good idea,Quote:
Originally Posted by knightshade
On the other hand factory ammo is loaded to higher pressure than NATO spec 7.62 these days
Recently I pulled down 30 rounds of .308 Federal Match reputed to be the Gold standard of factory .308
powder weight varied by 4.0 grains,
So if nothin else pulling the F4 and reloading will give you more consistent ammo,
Pull them and weight the powder charges work out the average charge and load a test batch at that weight see what you get.
Wow , I have never heard of this being done before .
You maybe swapping bullets of the same weight but there will be a significant difference in length which in turn will effect internal case capacity and pressure characteristics . I can't imagine pulling all those rounds will be an easy task , especially if they're crimped .
As has been suggested the necks will require sizing and you'll need to establish the average charge weight within those rounds before attempting any kind of load development . I would suggest a starting charge of 10% under and working up , especially since the propellant is unknown .
This isn't something that is commonplace over here in the UK or if it is I've certainly never come across it . It makes absolute sense from an economic standpoint to repurpose those rounds , especially if you guys are experiencing the same supply issues as we are .
I'd be interested in your results , if you wouldn't mind posting them ?
Did it in the states years ago probably up till present day.
Mexican handload I think. Usually 308
Used for military matches. Pull the FMJ pills and use appropriate target loads. Cheapest way at the time to get reasonable ammo
Do it. You'll be fine.
After you pull them, neck size the case before seating the new bullet.
If you get a sticky bolt drop two grains off the load and try again.
This is all very interesting. I've got some greek 303 ammo which may too hot and have been contemplating pulling the bullets, dumping a few grain of powder then reseating bullets.
I must admit I had neglected to neck size rounds I have done this to.
Am I correct in thinking that if I was to remove the deprimer in a standard lee die then it would only neck size?
Yes, but….Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteD
You’ll have to set up the die to only necksize, if that makes sense ?
You may not want to remove the deprimer, but raise it in the die body enough so the pin doesn't contact the base. You'll likely need the expander to set the neck to the right diameter for seating. For neck sizing as opposed to full length resizing, try a thin 16mm washer under the locking ring so you don't stuff up the die setting for FL sizing. I've done this with a seating die when I don't want it to crimp projectiles. Can't see it wouldn't work for a resizing die too. Be aware that some Lee resizing dies have longer neck expanders than other brands so don't back it off more than necessary.
As has been previously pointed out , the expander is what sets the final neck tension in a full length sizing die so again as has already been said , the decapping rod can be lifted to prevent popping the primer out .
Lee f/l dies are suitable for bump sizing , but you'll need to check cases will chamber before recharging and seating. If the die engages the case body without having sufficient shoulder contact the cases may grow as a result and not chamber .
It's a little thing, but worth bearing in mind.
People are making this sound really complicated. Its not. Pull the bullets, set up your die for neck sizing, take the decapping pin out or the expander completely) neck size them all. Take an average of the weight of the powder and then put it all back again, and then seat the new bullets.
Its very simple. And really, none of the things people are talking about above are going to happen. You'r not going to be over pressure. You're cases are not going to grow at all (you're neck sizing)
It's going to be fine.
No. You have t back the die out until it jsut engages the neck fo the casee, not the shoulder. Wind the die out a bit, and make a mark on a case with a felt tip, (or just put some lube on the neck) and run it into the die, you should be able to see where the die has sized part of teh neck a bit. Lower it until you are sizing the whole neck, but not more.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteD
You can keep the expander and decapping pin in, normally, to deprime the case, but this guys purpses he wants to neck size cases that are already primed, so he needs to take it out.
Why do you think Greek military .303 would be too hot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Three O'Three
Lee f/l dies are not neck sizing dies if you remove the rod they will outside diameter the neck in a very aggressive manner . This is to accommodate brass of all thicknesses , the final neck sizing is done by the expander ball as it is drawn back through the neck . If the OP were using a bushing die then things may be different.
The cases may grow if the die sizes the body without engaging the case shoulder , not will , may . So just in case , how difficult is it to check a case or two will chamber .
The ideal would be to use a Lee Collet neck sizing die with the decapping rod lifted up out of the way . The rod itself works as a mandrel to help keep the neck concentric.
Personally, I'd air on the side of caution . The propellant is unknown and changing bullets even to one of the same weight may change the internal pressures, especially if the bullet is longer then seated to the same c.o.l , as you may be reducing case capacity . I strongly suspect mil'spec fmj's will be considerably shorter than modern hunting bullets, with their boat tail and polymer tips .
Anyway , it's entirely up to the OP how he proceeds and whose advice he takes .
I'm done on the subject.
As someone who had never even heard of doing it three posts back, you have some strong opinions on how it wont work. :) Rest easy. It works fine. Listen to some people who have actually done it, and then you dont have to wonder. We can be your guides in this matter. People started doing this in the sixties with .303 ammo.
And I said remove the decapping pin, not the expander.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury
Not really strong opinions , I'm just cautious by nature when it comes to reloading . Especially when there is an unknown, such as propellant and pressures and the SST is a long bullet , that extra length has to go somewhere.
My previous suggestions of doing some form of load development is a combination of me being cautious and wanting to see the best results in the way of accuracy and consistency . The principles of reloading apply irrespective of chambering.
Yes you are correct , this process of pulling mil' spac' ammo and replacing the bullets is an alien concept to me , does that make me wrong to be want the OP to remain safe, perhaps its an English .thing. I'm sure a lot of people have done this without any problems .
I've reread the thread , I'm not sure where I got the idea the OP was using Lee dies , regardless the decapping pin is fixed in a Lee and if using something like the Hornady new dimensions dies , it may well engage the case body before sizing the neck . Given the mechanics of how a f/l die works it is possible for the cases to lengthen, though unlikely in unfired brass . Why am I wrong to suggest checking the cases still chamber , it's a few seconds that might save hours further on?
I never have a problem with being wrong , I often am and will openly admit to it if that's the case . . Me , I'm making suggestions that will hopefully help achieve a better end result and keep the OP safe and it is never wrong to promote safety. Try not to judge me too harshly , my posts are written with good intentions
Regards
I should never be allowed to post after a 15 hour day .
Can the OP do as @JohnDuxbury has suggested ? Remove the decapping pin or lift the rod high enough not to deprime. Then , providing his f/l die is already set for his rifle simply f/l size , taking care not to get lube of any sort inside the case . It may contaminate the primer . Assuming he doesn't possess a neck die , that is .
See , I'm never afraid to backpedal ��
a full length die DOES NOT AND NEVER HAS enguaged body before it enguages the neck...case is tapered,only slightly but they are tapered, partial length resize has been done for ever.. only some of the neck is shrunk and the body of case has stuff all as that last bit of downward squeze isnt used.
Been following this for a while in the 90s early 2000 up to 2019 I have pulled 1000 approx .min x nzdf men86 projs and replaced with 135 lapua megas no resizing etc using a collet puller just swapping projs not even crimping etc and running through slrs g3s ar10 rem pigs etc saigas m14 and no problems what so ever not to mention numerous b/actions ( yes Im a gun slut) the men 86 was the most accurate ammo for price I ever had ,always sub moa with the megas and great in older worn barrels been a flat base . Used them as a base test round on new guns rather than buy factory ammo . Did not work on the Singaporean / s African or fed red box for accuracy
My words of exp are go down in bullet weight and just check for pressure etc and hope those megas come but at a fare price .
FFS. As posted before, I have done this hundreds of times with various military rounds. Simply remove fmj and replace with same or lights bullet weight then go hunting. Never bothered resizing neck, never been a problem. Like m101a1 I’ve used through semis and bolt actions. Done it for probably 40 years.
I've done the pull & replace a few times in the past & all worked well. I also prime with large pistol primers in the 7.62x54R steel cases when rifle primers are scarce & they still work fine @ the ranges I generally kill things. No problems with dangerous pressures or lack of performance. I've been reloading since the early 70s & still have all my parts.....a little older..yes, but still here. (Yma o hyd)
Some basic .308 knowledge helps too: The .308 Winchester is loaded to much higher pressures than the NATO 7.62.
Piplstrelle, have you not heard of neck sizing with a full length die before? Its very simple to do and works perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by PipIstrelle
Difference is effectively about 4000psi. Interesting thing is MEN ammo cycles old M100 action too fast, rips extractor over rim leaving case in chamber. Case still falls out when bolt cycled manually. No problem with commercial ammo. Irrelevant though since we had semi’s taken off us.
interesting you say that...I reload .44magnum for a chap and wondered if could use the large pistol primers instead of my dwindling supply of large rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tararua Phil
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury
Sorry, I wasn't ignoring you .
I get the concept . Whenever I've set a f/l die for bump sizing , when I got close to the shoulders the cases started to lengthen . I'm gonna take a guess and say to just neck size you wouldn't be sizing to the neck shoulder juncture , so perhaps only sizing 90% of the neck .
I'll be honest , totally slipped my mind regarding the 7.62 NATO being loaded to lower pressure. My over cautious nature would still have me doing some sort of development though . But , that's me .
sorry that just doesnt make any sence at all.....Quote:
Originally Posted by PipIstrelle
by patrial length resizing your cases arent growing in length,they are DELIBERATELY being left slightly longer/closer to the length the chamber of your rifle left them...same as neck sizing and WHY people necksize.... how can an action of squishing something down make it grow longer upwards??? other than possibly a tiny bit longer in neck itself which is what measuring case and trimming is for.....
if you really want to see partial length resizing for what it is...try a 7.62x39mm die wit ha .308 expander ball...most sets come with both sizes. we used to get a mini shoulder 70-80% of the way down the neck,where die stopped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
It makes absolute sense .
A full length die sizes in the order of , outside neck diameter, body /web , shoulder then inside neck diameter. If the die squeezes the body before the shoulder engages the case will grow in length. Similar to squeezing a balloon. It's quite a common phenomena and quite possibly effects some dies more than others , both my 243 and 223 hornady dies will do this my 6.5 Creedmoor, Forster bump die won't , probably because it's not designed to body size .
Just a quick example , I use Redding competition shellholders, I use them because it's easier to achieve consistent sizing . Sizing fired 243 cases and using the +0.010" shellholder the cases grew by 0.001 to 0.002 " , using the +0.008" the shoulder would remain pretty much as were and the +0.006" shellholder gave a consistent shoulder set back of 1 to 2 thou" . All measurable and the cases sized with the +0.010" were difficult to chamber . The growth occurs in the head to shoulder measurement.
I anneal, so none of the case growth can be attributed to spring back .
I'm really surprised you haven’t come across this , it seems to be a recurring question on The Stalking Directory forum . Sometimes it can be attributable to the dies or shellholder, generally it appears to be poor die set up .
It was proposed that case length may grow just by neck sizing, or by neck sizing using a full length die and in a way that was so significant that it may make a case over length in one neck sizing operation and potentialy be dangerous when swapping projectiles on military ammunition.
However, I can reliably report that neck sizing does not significantly increase case length like full length sizing may; certainly not enough to make a military case over length in the operation that we are discussing here. If it does, you are not neck sizing. In practice, it's not an issue. (And if it was, we can just trim them right? We are disassembling ammunition and reassembling it with a different bullet, we can do what we want. )
forth line.....other than tiny bit of length at neck...yes I understand the balloon concept..... but your not doing F all squeazing here are you...... thats the whole point of doing it that way,to leave case as close to chamber size as possible..to do less work to brass,to make it last longer and be better fit for the chamber it came out of.Quote:
Originally Posted by PipIstrelle
and you dont come across something if you dont look for it...like poor velocity in a very accurate and great killing load..no chronograph = no problem
there is a very old saying in back country... a dead possum in the water tank isnt a problem untill you tell someone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
This isn't something I made up ,I don't require validation from a forum . I made the measurements at the time purely by chance as I was setting up my f/l die , which as it happened mirrored something I'd been told . Looking for it or not , it was measurable . I'm sure others have come across this and wondered why brass is suddenly a little tight to chamber.
Why would you think there's no squeezing on the case body as its sizing . The body will blow out during firing or do you think the chamber of your rifle remains steadfast resisting 55k psi of pressure without flexing and the case is a perfect fit ?
I'm not sure , but this appears to be angering you and that's unintended . It's just a forum and a discussion , its a difference of opinion, nothing more .
By the way love the analogy.
In the interest of politeness , I may restart this discussion on a fresh thread. Apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread .
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightshade
Would you share your results and process ?