Thread: Variables affecting precision

I would say that modern machining has produced the highest increase in precision re factory rifles. Long range shooting has caused all the great apps we now have. I'm not sure how much BR has really influenced me at all tbf. Maybe neckturning. But I don't go so far as to throw brass away if it's too heavy or light.
Do BR shooters even use VLD bullets? I honestly have no idea . I would guess no.

Originally Posted by Nick-D

Yeah man

Go and catch up with Steve Bell, Baden & Grant, they will possibly give you the opportunity to fire a few shots with their Benchrest rifle.
They tell me they offer this to some range users that show an interest.

Originally Posted by T.FOYE

I would say that modern machining has produced the highest increase in precision re factory rifles. Long range shooting has caused all the great apps we now have. I'm not sure how much BR has really influenced me at all tbf. Maybe neckturning. But I don't go so far as to throw brass away if it's too heavy or light.
Do BR shooters even use VLD bullets? I honestly have no idea . I would guess no.

Where do you think composite stocks came from?
Mike Walker and Jim Steckl worked for Remington, Mike designed the Rem 721/722, 700 actions and the 40X came about because Mike wanted an action that would outperform the standard 721/722 in competition shooting. Mike also designed the 222Rem cartridge, 6mm Remington and 6BR. The 722, 40X and 222R were used in Benchrest competition with the 222R setting a number of records when it came along and dominating it for a number of years, it took a while before the 6ppc came along and custom actions.
Mike Walker and Jim Steckl were both Benchrest competitors, the Remington Benchrest bullet was developed because of Benchrest competition, Remington also made a scope for Benchrest. Requirements in scopes for Benchrest were transferred to production hunting scopes.
The development of "Benchrest" quality bullets also influenced the modern cup and core bullets. Look at the history of bullet making dies Walt Astles and Ray Biehler, RCBS, and others Speer started making 224 bullets from 22lr cases.

Redding bushing dies were designed by a Benchrest competitor and he got Redding to produce them, a number of Benchrest competitors developed a number of reloading equipment items that have been bought by a reloading equipment manufacturer and introduced to mainstream reloaders.
Benchrest has influenced your hunting rifles, bullets, scopes etc and unless you researched Benchrest history along with the development of many things you wouldn't realise it.

The vld bullets are only recent additions in the history of shooting, Berger originally made VLD bullets and Walt built Berger bullets on Benchrest competition, the apps are only a result of accurate rifles and people wanting to shoot long distances.

Just like a lot of things developed in F1 that have found their way into modern motor vehicles, everything everyone now takes for granted, but most wouldn't know it originated in F1.

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...s-mike-walker/
https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries...ry?id=20467036
https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...es-at-age-101/
https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...mington-story/

I guess most people that have an interest in precision shooting have read 'Secrets of a Houston Warehouse' but thought I'd post this link for anyone interested. Some interesting thoughts within the article, maybe change some individuals thinking.
https://precisionrifleblog.com/wp-co...dMetalDark.jpg

Well the link I put in previous post doesn't seem to work so try this.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Yo8Q9T5GdcJMFL

Ive read that a few times over the past 20 years. It makes sense in line with my theoretical framework, right.

Absolute consistency important, jammed bullets. powder charge unimportant.

Yes - minimize variations in pressure-time curve with Absolute consistency shot-to-shot

Minimise asymmetrical engraving and hence induced angular rate by jamming bullets. Unfortunately impractical for field use.
@woods223 what is your takeaway from it?

Originally Posted by gimp

Ive read that a few times over the past 20 years. It makes sense in line with my theoretical framework, right.

Absolute consistency important, jammed bullets. powder charge unimportant.

Yes - minimize variations in pressure-time curve with Absolute consistency shot-to-shot

Minimise asymmetrical engraving and hence induced angular rate by jamming bullets. Unfortunately impractical for field use.
@woods223 what is your takeaway from it?

People over think powder charge and get your necktension equal for ya ammo

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As a mostly game shooter and mildly interested target shooter I certainly don't get too hung up about the nitty gritty details of reloading absolute top tier ammo, certainly not like in the article I linked.Waste of time at my age with deteriorating eyesight. I do however like reading what individuals get up to and the deep holes they go down chasing accuracy.
I'm quite happy with target loads that, when I get my shit together and the wind cooperates, keep 10-15 counting shots within the V-Bull at whatever range. Heck even keeping in the 5-ring can keep you in the game at times. My target loads just happen to be my longer range hunting loads as well in two rifles. I like to keep things simple. I decide on a powder,primer,bullet combination and see how things go. I don't get fanatical about cleaning brass but do anneal from time to time. Also graphite lube either case neck or bullet for ease and consistency of seating for certain occasions. I don't chase maximum velocity like some do. I do try for low SD but don't get fanatical about it, if 10 shots are grouping well at say 900 yards but SD isn't extremely low WGAF. If however a load doesn't perform I try different powder, powder weight,bullet to find something that does perform acceptably.
And by the way, there is mass produced ammo out there that will more than fulfill most hunters requirements. Back in the '90's we were using Federal produced 7.62 and 300 Win Mag ammo in more critical situations and it did the job fine.

Originally Posted by woods223

As a mostly game shooter and mildly interested target shooter I certainly don't get too hung up about the nitty gritty details of reloading absolute top tier ammo, certainly not like in the article I linked.Waste of time at my age with deteriorating eyesight. I do however like reading what individuals get up to and the deep holes they go down chasing accuracy.
I'm quite happy with target loads that, when I get my shit together and the wind cooperates, keep 10-15 counting shots within the V-Bull at whatever range. Heck even keeping in the 5-ring can keep you in the game at times. My target loads just happen to be my longer range hunting loads as well in two rifles. I like to keep things simple. I decide on a powder,primer,bullet combination and see how things go. I don't get fanatical about cleaning brass but do anneal from time to time. Also graphite lube either case neck or bullet for ease and consistency of seating for certain occasions. I don't chase maximum velocity like some do. I do try for low SD but don't get fanatical about it, if 10 shots are grouping well at say 900 yards but SD isn't extremely low WGAF. If however a load doesn't perform I try different powder, powder weight,bullet to find something that does perform acceptably.
And by the way, there is mass produced ammo out there that will more than fulfill most hunters requirements. Back in the '90's we were using Federal produced 7.62 and 300 Win Mag ammo in more critical situations and it did the job fine.

Agreed, 90% of animals I shoot are with factory ammo, hunting at conventional ranges is not demanding for ammunition or rifle performance.

Originally Posted by gimp

Of course wind shifts POI, however, in my experience and data, 3- or 5- shot groups shift poi quite a lot even in zero wind conditions. This makes sense. You're taking a 3 or 5 round sample from a larger population. If you believe otherwise, what is your theoretical explanation for why a 10 or 20 round group will (almost always) be larger in size than a 5 round group ? It's simple - you sample more of the population and hence the spread.


for example here is a 20 round (0.9 MOA) group at 100 metres.
Attachment 279455
Here is one of the 5 round groups that were shot on a target pinned in front, to generate the 20 round overlay. Note the average ("aggregate") group size was about .49MOA, smallest 0.34 largest 0.66. The load was totally random and un-tuned. Book max of 2206H in FL sized brass with no other prep, seating depth whatever the die was set at for another bullet. No testing.
Attachment 279456


It's clear from this and any number of other examples that overlaying including POI is not the same as the bench rest aggregate. Aggregate is an average size but disregards position, thus it describes the true precision poorly, and only functions as a "relative index".

When I say "discarded" - I mean loads discarded in the load tuning process. My current understanding based on the evidence I can find is that "load tuning" processes get you to a good load in spite of the process, rather than because of it.

The test of a load development process is not "does it allow me to get a good load" but "does it allow me to distinguish whether loads are actually different"

So far, I have been unable to determine any real precision difference between loads using the conventional tuning approaches with small group sizes, when tested with larger groups.

The apparent differences go away when you take a more valid sample. Which of course makes sense conceptually when you think about taking sub-samples from a larger population.

It's clear that in some cases seating depth (particularly large steps) and powder charge do affect precision, but it's not clear that the effect size is very large at all, detectable practically, or necessary to fiddle with to get a load that is practically functional for any use.


If you have evidence otherwise, please post it so we can all understand - evidence in the form of targets, because "show me don't tell me "

Great shooting

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