Thread: Deer Population Growth

Originally Posted by STC

Always cracks me up how people boast seeing "too many" deer in their "secret spot".

Plenty of new and young hunters that would be keen if somebody showed them those "secret spots" of yours.

yes but I have lost now two good spots in last few years by taking so called friends down only to have them do the dirty on me and then take their mates back and stuff it up for me - despite asking them to respect the fact that I had the permission - one now called the prick even camped out on one spot with his mates and when spoken to by cocky dropped my name into it - I lost a neat little block as next time I rang I was refused access - so those of us who have spent a lot of time and effort to find good areas do guard that permission somewhat

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

yes but I have lost now two good spots in last few years by taking so called friends down only to have them do the dirty on me and then take their mates back and stuff it up for me - despite asking them to respect the fact that I had the permission - one now called the prick even camped out on one spot with his mates and when spoken to by cocky dropped my name into it - I lost a neat little block as next time I rang I was refused access - so those of us who have spent a lot of time and effort to find good areas do guard that permission somewhat

Totally understand where you are coming from.

However If one choses to believe the "there are too many deer" narrative there essentially are 2 options: share the spots with "too many deer" and accept that that will not the case for long or give in to the 1080/pest eradication propaganda that some actors are pushing for in this thread.

Originally Posted by STC

Totally understand where you are coming from.

However If one choses to believe the "there are too many deer" narrative there essentially are 2 options: share the spots with "too many deer" and accept that that will not the case for long or give in to the 1080/pest eradication propaganda that some actors are pushing for in this thread.

1080 will never be used to eradicate deer. But aerial shooting operations are looming - in many areas there are too many deer. Most farmers though don't realise the high populations on their properties - they aren't looking for them and aren't ninja'ing around at the right times.
Honestly though and to keep things in perspective, I don't tell some farmers how many deer I see on their properties for fear of a gun ship reprisal or them opening their gates to other hunters. There's naked self interest for you.

Originally Posted by Tahr

eradicate deer

I want to clarify something regarding the use of the word "eradicate"

In wildlife management, "eradication" has a specific definition - the total and permanent removal of a population. There are criteria that determine whether this is technically feasible:
1. Animals must killed at rate faster than rate of increase
2. There must be no immigration into the managed area
3. All reproductive animals must put at risk

It is not possible to meet these criteria for any ungulate species across the whole NZ mainland within any kind of economic scenario you could imagine. Eradication has only ever been seriously considered or attempted on Islands or localised isolated populations on the mainland e.g new releases of deer or isolated populations of goats. There are many examples where attempted localised eradications have failed - they require a lot of funding and must be extremely well planned.

NZ is ~26,000,000ha. Eradication becomes exponentially more difficult and expensive to achieve as area increases. The largest deer eradication from an offshore island to date was Secretary Island in Fiordland at 8,000ha. This cost something like $1,000,000 10 years ago.

Simple multiplication (disregarding the actual exponential cost) gives you an idea of how terrifyingly expensive the idea of eradicating deer from NZ would be even aside from all of the other issues - capability, social license, illegal releases, poor-cost benefit when you consider discounted present value of future benefits, etc.

There is no sensible person or anyone in any position of relevance in any management agency who considers or advocates for eradication of deer from NZ. Even if there were, it is technically and economically impossible.

The only realistic option for managing deer in NZ in the future is sustained control to manage impacts. A sensible, sustainable and realistic picture of what this might look like is yet to be articulated by anyone at all, to my knowledge.

that GIMP was a great reply - when I worked for DOC as an Animal Control Manager the term eradicate was never ever used - it was sustained control

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

that GIMP was a great reply - when I worked for DOC as an Animal Control Manager the term eradicate was never ever used - it was sustained control

I have personally heard certain "advocates" for "conservation" publicly express the idea of using genetically engineered viruses to (quote) "eradicate" pests.

Not every player in this "game" is sane or has good intentions, keep that in mind.

NZ Scientists have been looking at that for years - with possums we were told by one scientist they had a virus that could wipeout possums but did not have an agent to carry it thru the possum population like a cold virus - but yes one hopes it does not go any further with deer - I personally believe with deer they should be shot only but am old fashioned that way

"1080 will never be used to eradicate deer." @Tahr. Never say never. Trials were done years ago on the effectiveness of . One trial was applying paste to foliage of preferred browse of Whitetail down south. There was talk of 1080 trials on Fallow down south as well (farmer initiative possibly), have been on a place where we shot a few for dog tucker and thinned the rest to waste. And it was accidently proven how effective it can be on Red deer on Molesworth a few years ago, everyone involved in that operation was horrified at the outcome of that operation.

Originally Posted by woods223

"1080 will never be used to eradicate deer." @Tahr. Never say never. Trials were done years ago on the effectiveness of . One trial was applying paste to foliage of preferred browse of Whitetail down south. There was talk of 1080 trials on Fallow down south as well (farmer initiative possibly), have been on a place where we shot a few for dog tucker and thinned the rest to waste. And it was accidently proven how effective it can be on Red deer on Molesworth a few years ago, everyone involved in that operation was horrified at the outcome of that operation.

its not licensed for use on ungulates. And the public would never allow it. Molesworth was a shambles but the silver lining was the increased acceptance and use of repellent and adjustments in sewing rates.

Originally Posted by Tahr

its not licensed for use on ungulates. And the public would never allow it. Molesworth was a shambles but the silver lining was the increased acceptance and use of repellent and adjustments in sewing rates.

Agree, it's not licenced but they know it works. As so many on here keep stating, Govt. departments can be a law onto themselves and fuck the general public. I don't believe it will happen but who knows?

Originally Posted by STC

Totally understand where you are coming from.

However If one choses to believe the "there are too many deer" narrative there essentially are 2 options: share the spots with "too many deer" and accept that that will not the case for long or give in to the 1080/pest eradication propaganda that some actors are pushing for in this thread.

I had agreed to numbers to be taken and frequency with both the two blocks involved - and in both cases the cocky did not give out access - if I introduced other hunters to a landowner who is then happy to let them thru well and good - another thing is cockys now are shit scared of HSE and possible repercussions for them should an accident occur - and many have no lack of hunters themselves - access has always been the hard one - but just a point on 1080 and deer DOC policy does not allow deliberate targeting of deer with 1080 and long may that continue - but some of the other agencys like Regional Councils well they sacary

Originally Posted by STC

Totally understand where you are coming from.

However If one choses to believe the "there are too many deer" narrative there essentially are 2 options: share the spots with "too many deer" and accept that that will not the case for long or give in to the 1080/pest eradication propaganda that some actors are pushing for in this thread.

No offence intended whatsoever but I think this is a very naive view.

The property I was referring to above is adjacent to my permissions. I sit on the boundary and look out over this neighbouring station. I have no rights on that property. The only way the deer could ever be controlled on there would be with helicopter shooting. And in time I am quite sure that is what will happen.

Neither you and your mates nor anyone else on foot would make the slightest bit of difference, such is the terrain.

I know how many deer are getting shot in helicopter culls in that part of the world, and if I said it here, you wouldn’t believe me.

This has got bugger all to do with my “secret spots”. I am just one of several guys that shoot the adjacent farms on a regular basis. There’s nothing secret about it whatsoever.

The way I interpret your response is that there is a hefty dose of envy, which is getting in the way of understanding the practical realities. Like I say I do not mean to offend but sometimes some attitude adjustment needs to happen to be able to see a problem for what it really is.

Originally Posted by Flyblown

No offence intended whatsoever but I think this is a very naive view.

The property I was referring to above is adjacent to my permissions. I sit on the boundary and look out over this neighbouring station. I have no rights on that property. The only way the deer could ever be controlled on there would be with helicopter shooting. And in time I am quite sure that is what will happen.

Neither you and your mates nor anyone else on foot would make the slightest bit of difference, such is the terrain.

I know how many deer are getting shot in helicopter culls in that part of the world, and if I said it here, you wouldn’t believe me.

This has got bugger all to do with my “secret spots”. I am just one of several guys that shoot the adjacent farms on a regular basis. There’s nothing secret about it whatsoever.

The way I interpret your response is that there is a hefty dose of envy, which is getting in the way of understanding the practical realities. Like I say I do not mean to offend but sometimes some attitude adjustment needs to happen to be able to see a problem for what it really is.

Please keep your projections to your self, and also understand that my remark was not necessarily aimed directly at you, each and every one will have their reasons, some of them even good reasons.

I do not mind people keeping their secret spots. On the contrary. But there are plenty of new hunters that are struggling to get their freezer filled. Bullshitting about how deer numbers are "exploding" (they are not in many places), does not help.

I also do not necessarily have problems with helicopter operations, as long as the meat is used, on the contrary.

Nearly all land can be made accessible if there is a desire to do so. Ask the early settlers, Sadly we have adopted an attitude of finding excuses not to do something instead of getting on with it.

Originally Posted by STC

Please keep your projections to your self, and also understand that my remark was not necessarily aimed directly at you, each and every one will have their reasons, some of them even good reasons.

I do not mind people keeping their secret spots. On the contrary. But there are plenty of new hunters that are struggling to get their freezer filled. Vullshitting about how deer numbers are "exploding" (they are not in many places), does not help.

I also do not necessarily have problems with helicopter operations, as long as the meat is used, on the contrary.

Nearly all land can be made accessible if there is a desire to do so. Ask the early settlers, Sadly we have adopted an attitude of finding excuses not to do something instead of getting on with it.

Bullshitting? Are you for real?

And helicopter operations always using the meat? Are you aware of the current venison economics? Thousands of deer are being shot to waste right now, because the economics of recovery and processing aren't remotely close to breaking even, let alone turning a profit.

We are free to express our views in open forum and I will do so in this matter whether you like my "projections" or not. Simply put, the answer to this problem is absolutely not giving new hunters permission on every property with a deer control problem. That is an extremely naïve view. Land owners have significant exposure to hunting related risks and unfortunately, the new hunter population is and always has been plagued by the unacceptable number of fuckwits. Why do you think that land owners are so wary of giving strangers permission? New hunters need to work up the ranks just like the rest of us did. They are extremely lucky to have so much public land access in NZ.

I'm quite happy to stand by what I've said. I can't really get my head around you seeming to believe we're making things up about the over-population problem. Unreal.

great discussion - shoot to waste has been a culling rule for years - I know of operators going out shooting 500 + to reduce numbers and no recovery -in some areas the numbers are well up especially fallow in many areas - having managed culling operations the rule is dont spend time and money stuffing around with carcasses - use the time to shoot more - simple as that - we need to accept that there will be shoot and leave helicopter operations - access to private requires time and networking - just ringing is not enough - visit and be willing to give something back like a hand with firewood - my good spots took a long time and I dont break any rules put on me - and I make damn sure its the beer that he likes yuk yuk and mother gets wine or premixed