Thread: Deer Population Growth

We might want to be careful making generalisations across the country based on what we see locally. Perception often influences reality. If you hunt private blocks, farms or stations, I would imagine you would see many more animals than say a hunter in the upper north island that has only access to Doc bush blocks. Youtube doesn't help where hunters will spend days passing over a number of animals to shoot a ripper stag (and full credit to them). Meanwhile, someone starting out in the Kaimanawas, Pureora or Kaimai bush, might spend days hunting "ghosts in the darkness" sika or reds, and get squealed or barked at. It's all relative to where you go.

But, when generalisations are made by the hunting community, is it any surprise when Doc increases pest control measures, or Waro fires up? And what is the response from forums like this? Complaints about such operations. So perhaps if you are seeing such big numbers of animals on private blocks, let people know locally you trust, and do something about it and reduce the hind numbers. I recently spend three days in my favourite tops spot. I go a couple of times of year if I'm lucky (and Jacinta let me) and spend a few days glassing animals. I saw a dozen, hinds, fawns, stags (in velvet and just stripped), spikers and young hinds without animals at foot. Loved it. They were all in healthy condition, and the numbers are about the same as what I have seen in previous years. Are they out of control? Maybe. Maybe not. But I took a couple of young animals, left the stags to grow, and hope to go back. Isn't that what it's all about, actually seeing deer? Just saying.

Originally Posted by Snoppernator

We might want to be careful making generalisations across the country based on what we see locally. Perception often influences reality. If you hunt private blocks, farms or stations, I would imagine you would see many more animals than say a hunter in the upper north island that has only access to Doc bush blocks. Youtube doesn't help where hunters will spend days passing over a number of animals to shoot a ripper stag (and full credit to them). Meanwhile, someone starting out in the Kaimanawas, Pureora or Kaimai bush, might spend days hunting "ghosts in the darkness" sika or reds, and get squealed or barked at. It's all relative to where you go.

But, when generalisations are made by the hunting community, is it any surprise when Doc increases pest control measures, or Waro fires up? And what is the response from forums like this? Complaints about such operations. So perhaps if you are seeing such big numbers of animals on private blocks, let people know locally you trust, and do something about it and reduce the hind numbers. I recently spend three days in my favourite tops spot. I go a couple of times of year if I'm lucky (and Jacinta let me) and spend a few days glassing animals. I saw a dozen, hinds, fawns, stags (in velvet and just stripped), spikers and young hinds without animals at foot. Loved it. They were all in healthy condition, and the numbers are about the same as what I have seen in previous years. Are they out of control? Maybe. Maybe not. But I took a couple of young animals, left the stags to grow, and hope to go back. Isn't that what it's all about, actually seeing deer? Just saying.

I'd have to disagree with that
Some of us post time and time again about the deer numbers in the Ruahines accessible for everyone and reasonably central to all the north island and yet there's so many deer in there in winter they are literally starving to death.

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Im pretty sure that DOC fire up on an evidenced based basis and not conjecture or utube reports.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Im pretty sure that DOC fire up on an evidenced based basis and not conjecture or utube reports.

disagree.

Originally Posted by STC

disagree.

https://www.doc.govt.nz/our-work/mon...tes-2022-2023/

Originally Posted by gimp

https://www.doc.govt.nz/our-work/mon...tes-2022-2023/

I prefer facts I and other people see on the ground instead of "reports" written by what nowadays can only be classified as ideologues.

Originally Posted by STC

I prefer facts I and other people see on the ground instead of "reports" written by what nowadays can only be classified as ideologues.

Are you saying that your anecdotal evidence is more robust than scientific research?

Originally Posted by gimp

https://www.doc.govt.nz/our-work/mon...tes-2022-2023/

I know individuals that undertook some of those studies, mind-numbing work but provided sound data. The only problem is that there are vast tracts of land in private ownership that haven't been studied which hold animal numbers that would blow the minds of many on this forum. Just one station here in Marlborough culled over 1300 deer onlt a few years ago and are contemplating another operation. They might not get the same number of animals again but they'll come close. And theres other properties in the region with similar problems with deer and goats. There is one station now planted in pines for ETS, Trap & Trigger have shot many hundreds of animals there but they will never stop infill from surrounding areas.

What historically was done to control deer numbers?
Government and private funded culling obviously, both by heli and nzfs etc.
Wasn't a deer carcass once worth money? What measures did MPI take that removed the monetary value of deer to the average hunter? Genuine question.

Originally Posted by Brad S

What historically was done to control deer numbers?
Government and private funded culling obviously, both by heli and nzfs etc.
Wasn't a deer carcass once worth money? What measures did MPI take that removed the monetary value of deer to the average hunter? Genuine question.

From 1931 til the 1970s, first Department of Internal Affairs then the Forest Service (after 1955) killed deer under government control programmes largely motivated by competition with farm livestock and general moral panic. There was poor setting of objectives and understanding of delivering effective work, and at a national scale this work (plus background rec hunter effort) likely did not stop the increase in deer numbers, however there is some evidence that localised well-planned operations achieved locally effective results. Govt hunters from 1936 - 1960 shot on average about 32,000 deer per year - up to 60,000. Govt effort hunting deer stopped in the 1970s once commercial hunting really took off.

There was some targeted aerial 1080 use in the late 1950s, targeting deer. There is poor evidence available of whether this was effective and effects on deer populations. Other than that there were a few odds and sods of trials of gel bait that have had mixed results. It's not likely to be a useful tool for a number of reasons.

In the early 1960s, commercial hunting (meat and subsequently live capture) became a strong additive pressure on top of NZFS and rec hunter kills. The combined effect of these added up to significantly reduce the population through the 1970s to a low point in the early 1980s. Commercial hunting at a national scale has been around an average of 16,000 deer since 1983 however. There are some local effects still but at a national level it is not a large or effective contribution anymore.

The incentives that drove the massive additional effort of commercial hunting at the time were peculiar and will not re-occur. Fixed exchange rate, tax write-off incentives, stocking for new deer farms, etc. These disappeared with Rogernomics in the 1980s as command economic systems do not work. They did create a huge market bubble for approximately 10 years - the price of wild venison in 1972 was approximately 7x what a WARO operator gets now, and running costs have also increased (fuel, parts, regulation) - inflation adjusted about double. So meat hunting from a helicopter was around 14x more profitable in 1972 than it is today. Live capture was also an incredibly lucrative business for a very short period - it was financially worth flying a helicopter for 10 hours to capture 1 hind. This translates perhaps to the levels of control effort (ie cost) that would be applied for eradicating the last deer from an Island - i.e. a very high level of effort. This level of incentive on top of the background effort by Govt/rec hunters contributed to driving populations to apparently extremely low levels mostly everywhere.

Increased food safety regulations have also put an end to any ground based commercial hunting.

Rec hunter harvest at a national level is poorly understood and there is very limited data. However estimates by Nugent 1988 are 54,667 deer and Kerr 2011 135,000 deer.

The available evidence suggests that all parts of the system are not keeping up with deer numbers increasing at a national scale, however there are significant local variances to this.

great awnser Gimp - there were also problems with toxins and selling wild shot venison and 1080 was not always the problem - talon ( brodifacoum) was a real nasty and available without any license despite it being extremely residual -operators needed a clean pesticide report from the operational area to process wildshot deer and it was at times a bloody nightmare - trying to get accurate information - I had a license to sell wildshot but trying to get that clear pesticide report from all neighbors - I gave it up - I always understand talon (brodificoum ) did turn up in wildshot venison (Taumaranui) but dont quote me

Originally Posted by Snoppernator

We might want to be careful making generalisations across the country based on what we see locally.

You can’t really call the widest part of the country with an almost ubiquitous ungulate problem from coast to coast a local situation…. That’s a significant regional problem on a broad scale. From the far western Taranaki right the Wanganui, Manawatu, Taihape, Ruapehu, Taumarunui, Taupo, over to the Kaimanawas and through to the Wairarapa & Hawkes Bay and up into the East Cape. Red deer are on the move and are being seen in areas they have either never been seen before or they’ve long been assumed to have been eradicated. On one of my permissions near Ureti in the NW Taranaki, third-generation farmers are seeing fallow for the first time where previously they’ve only had a problem with pigs and goats. On another permission near Waverley in the S Taranaki, where there is a significant fallow population, the landowner was horrified to see a mob of reds on his back paddocks last winter. Never seen them before and neither have any of the guys that hunt his property. Ditto sika, they are starting to turn up all over the Western Ruapehu now, and that’s a very recent thing.

People I know inland from Hicks Bay on the NE end of the Raukumaras talk about plagues of reds raiding their farms in numbers they’ve not experienced over three generations.

Similar sentiment from those on here that farm in Hawke’s Bay. Just look at @BRADS photos from a few days ago.

This isn’t a private block, local level problem, were taking out hinds on a recreational hunter level is going to make any difference. It’s a far bigger problem than that. But also I don’t think there’s any nationwide generalising happening here based on local observations at all. The comments so far have been quite specific geographically speaking.

Interesting piece there Gimp. But I'm sure many ex-cullers from that era would disagree with some of it, my father for one. He culled in the Marlborough region, mostly Molesworth ,St James and surrounding areas. The "Major" ran the Internal Affairs operation back then and Bill Chishom, an ex-culler himself, ran Molesworth. There were massive numbers of deer shot and culling operationd did have an effect. There simplly wasn't the manpower and/or money to be more effective. My father and Bill both told me that there weren't a great number of people that could hack the life. Many 'new chums' came and went, some lasted less than a week. That's cullers and stockman. I daresay the same would apply these days regarding foot-hunters and their stickability. Molesworth even have cases of potential stockman wanting assurances that they get the internet up there these days and no campouts ffs. Back then they tried their best controlling deer. Reading comments on this forum from time to time, I don't believe many on here would have the fortitude/stomach to do culling work day after day as is required. There's a couple of rather jaded individuals on here who know what's required. So effective deer/goat control will require chopper shooting for now and that's another skill/mindset again. Never mind the cost. Got off subject a bit but thats what happens here.

Im also told that the mobs of deer had to be stalked past to get at big tahr in the Timaru creek area near hawea.... first hand accounts from people who were there at the time.
I recall my family menfolk coming home from hunting the roar in area (central north island)we have hunted for 60 plus years 5 experienced hunters in for two weeks and never saw a thing that wasnt under a whirly bird being carted out.....that area gets hit by big 1080 drop every few years still...animal numbers sure arent excessive .there is at least one other forum member who hunts that area can confirm that.