Has 1080 by kill struck again

Maungatautiri is a failure and a massive and very unpopular burden on Waikato Regional ratepayers who have been forced unwillingly to bail it out several times now.

Zealandia is also a failure and famous for it's poisoning of trout by use of Rotenone placed into the streams. Incidentally some of the green extremists want to see Rotenone (derris dust0 used in waterways emanating from national parks in order to eradicate those pesty trout.

I cannot comment on Orokonui an=s I don't know it.

Shakespeare park in Auckland is another example, but rats are reinfesting by swimming around the fence. Ulva island is another example of a place where trapping was successful but not maintained so a great excuse for DoC to pour brodifacoum onto the place. IMO to create a precedent leading to intended complete poisoning of Stewart island. Rats are still swimming to Ulva island.

Sanctuaries are a reasonable step off starting block but trapping and or target specific well maintained bait /trap stations can be effective for possums, mustelids and rats, mice. This has been proven long term (18 years) in Northern Urewera.

Woody, those are some pretty harsh comments about the sanctuaries.

In what way do you think they are failures ? Financial, but then show me any conservation effort that is not a drain on the taxpayer...

Ecosystem restoration wise and species numbers wise, I would be interested to hear your argument if you think they are failures....

Certainly the debate will vary depending on the parameters being included /excluded / discussed. When I say failure I am speaking in very broad terms and fiscal balances are high on my personal list of priorities. Different sections of communities and ethnic groups will always have varying priorities. The concept of sanctuary is good, and the concept of expanding a managed environment is good. However there is going to be a trade off between isolation by fencing, and management in practical terms in a wider environment. The former is proving very expensive and far from meeting design expectations while the latter is being almost totally ignored in terms other than mass aerial poisoning.


Be good to sit down over a crock of beer and a cooking fire to have an amicable discussion about it all sometime :)

Maungatautiri...33 million dollars of wasted effort. Rats and stoats penetrated the enclosure 2 years ago finally forcing the removal of native species released since the massive brodifacoum drops over the years.

A small portion of this amount could have been used to station two permanent Trappers/Gamekeepers on the mountain.
This would have changed the pest/native balance for the good. The rest could have been used to set up the same in many other reserves all over NZ

Fencing a mountain like Maungatautiri is ineffectual as nature is all too powerful. Floods, landslides, washouts, falling trees take their toll on the fence and as we know nature abhors a vacuum. All that stands between the remnants of the original well poisoned native bird population and a few imports is a few strands of rusting Chinese netting.

Interesting it is that two airdrops went astray and fell among sheep and cattle requiring herds and flocks to be destroyed and the farmers to be compensated.

The odd morepork has been seen on the Mountain recently after their numbers were greatly reduced by aerial dropped poisons.
Such was the excitement of the birds return that a camera was set up to record the nesting event. Guess what the camera recorded??? a morepork flying into the enclosure with a live rat which it let go for its chicks to catch. The camera also recorded the fact that the rat escaped the attention of the morepork chicks and is now looking for a mate. Nature is a powerful adversary far too powerful for the schemes and machinations of a bunch shiny arsed desk bandits ego tripping on the publics purse.

Evidence is out that the material used in the construction of the enclosure was shoddy and is rusting out, making more penetrations from pests possible and there is a strong possibility that the fence will have to be replaced. Oh dear more ratepayer expense for what is already proved itself a great white elephant. Even farmers have stopped access to the fence and its early warning system until such messy problems as IWI joint Governence issues under a recent Treaty Settlement are cleaned up.

In the Conservation Field as a soakhole for money it has no equal in NZ. When I last went there entry was free but the mountain was still suffering the silence of a well poisoned forest. Now you have to pay, for what, I don't know.

Attachment 33566

About bloody time! Many of us have been trying to get these bods to do something like this for several years now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Woody

About bloody time! Many of us have been trying to get these bods to do something like this for several years now.

---

They have tried for many years but trappers never had a level playing field. The Govt Departments never wanted them in their Forests and so tilted the ground in favour of the use of 1080/brodifacoum at every opportunity.

The Govt killed off the wild venison exports for the same reason.

Graeme, fenced sanctuaries are not caged zoos, they need to be open at the top to allow birds to come and go... Sometimes a tree falls on the fence, sometimes a bird brings in a pest animal, all of those factors are part and parcel of managing and running a fenced sanctuary.

The one that I am involved with has an annual program of pest control (mainly mice) using bait stations. Also constant monitoring using tracking tunnels etc to ensure that any pests are identified as soon as possible.

From first hand experience, I can tell you that the most surprising thing for me has been the regeneration of the native forrest. Increases in bird numbers is something you'd expect. 600% plus increases in Tui numbers, Kaka numbers increasing rapidly and some of the birds banded here being captured as far as Mt Bruce.

Have not visited Maungatautari yet, scaling the fenced sanctuary concept is something that may or may not work. Orokonui is similar to Karori in size.

I think sanctuaries like these give us tremendous opportunities to compare different pest control methods against each other in a more controlled environment, and also to build on the practical knowledge of what is required for more focused conservation efforts in future. It is also a very good test bed for ironing out partnerships with volunteers and other stakeholders. At any point in time, there are around half a dozen masters and phd students doing research, including the trial of rotenone in running water mentioned earlier (also being used in the western cape in South Africa btw). One of the current projects is to see if robins have the ability to count :D

Then add onto that the thousands of visitors who get to see very rare species such as takahe, saddleback, tuatara etc, I see quite a lot of positives where others see failures....:)

As a ratepayer I payed unwillingly for this..
In Maungatautari I saw a so called sanctuary that had used up so much of the available money that little was left for other more useful projects like the Te Urewera Mainland Island Project.

I saw a very expensive excluder fence that did not exclude pests. (note the mouse plague in the sanctuary this summer that makes a mockery of any science projects concerning biodiversity}

We wanted to see how well the liberated Kaka were making out. We were shown a single kaka in a small escape proof enclosure inside the sanctuary it seems the rest had taken one look at the place and shot through. Quite wisely we thought with the amount of poison used around the area.

The kiwi were grossly underweight when weighted at the end of the year. Not surprising again with the amount of pesticides used over the years.

And the silence of the place was almost painful to hear.

If I want to hear a healthy native bird population I can go to my own Queen Elizabeth Trust Block and the two Council Reserves I have on my own place. Stepping stone blocks out of the Northern Ureweras Mainland Island Project.

Just a cattle and goat fence around these. Pest control methods... Traps and hand laid feratox.

Don't shoot the messenger;) BAN 1080 just been copied and posted

HAPPY 1st BIRTHDAY TO US !!!!
To all of you , Id like to thank you all for liking , posting , sharing , spreading the word , buying t-shirts hoodies and stickers and joining in the debates . It would be great to thank you all in person but with the 16800 odd people that would be hard !
On this day last year I was on PIG DOGS AND GEAR FOR SALE NZ and joined in the conversation on 1080 . I decided that there was somewhere needed to get this horrible poison and what it does exposed to public view and DOCs lies to come to an end. I think we have defiantly exposed their crap they spin.
To 1080 EYEWITNESS ..... thank you for being another cog in the chain , and for your support and backing!
To 1080 DOES THE JOB YOU DONT .... Your a bloody joke !! Abusive , and cannot handle the truth .
To the ADMIN , Jonty , Jason , Chrissy and Michelle .... you guys are friggn awesome and keep this site alive with your posts , facts n figgures , apparel , stickers , all the research you do , and support.
Thankyou again everyone keep up the great work spreading the word about this site , 1080 eyewitness and 1080 .
Cheers guys and girls ,
DUNCAN.
I would also like to take this opportunity to comment well. Jonty.
Thanks for taking the bull by the horns and kicking this off Duncan, you have certainly shown your 'go getter' skills in getting this and the T-shirts etc going. Thanks also for having faith in me and adding me to the admin despite Barry Baxter whinging in your ear that I would destroy this site. The one directive you gave me was too "stick to 1080 and not to digress to side topics". which was a bloody great directive as it keeps us on the straight and narrow and focused on one thing.
It is important to think back a year when this site first formed. We were constantly bickering and basically being shouted down and abused by the poison pushers. It was their objective to do this too scare as many people off as possible, which was working to an extent. this site has given thousands a chance to sit back and read about what is really happening and ask questions without fear of being abused. In those days there was a main crew that commented on other sites but only about 20 or so full timers, it is great to see that the number has now swelled drastically.
Looking through the demographics and country stat's a lot of people are hearing about 1080 over seas and clicking 'like' here and it is great to see that happening and the word is increasingly getting out. I am surprised by how many young people actually mention to in conversation their view on 1080 and they don't know that I am involved with this at all. The word is getting out there and we will eventually reach tipping point where we will have to be listened to.
Also many thanks to my wife who lets me spend hours doing this. Michelle the latest admin who's words her posts way more eloquent than I do and can, you bring a whole new dimension to this site. Jason , Chrissy for sorting out the t-shirts, stickers and such, I'm sure it's not that easy. Barry Baxter and Dan Kane (pro 1080 supporters) also thanks you because without your constant dribble and abuse that pointed out to me how wrong 1080 is, I would have walked away years ago. The hard core crew that is on here most days, you are a great help fielding questions and supplying articles, cuttings, audio, video etc wicked guys, you know who you are... Pete Lusk, bloody hell mate, what you just did was not an light call to make but you stood up and made that call for what you believe in, WOW you blow me away with your actions. The Graff Boys, Dr Pollard, Mike Meads, the O'Keef's and all the others that are the pioneers of this movement, you guys are an inspiration to me and I am sure to quite a few others. An lastly everyone out there for hitting 'like', commenting, sharing and telling others a very special thanks. Sorry if I have forgotten someone this was off the cuff.
Sorry if we don't get a chance to reply to everyone but it is a big job getting through it and we have a life to try and keep together outside of this.
Bloody that got a bit long winded, thank you all again from the bottom of my heart.
Jonty

Attachment 33578

Naughty little Ginja Minge doesn't want any nasty sprays and poisons around her block but she is happy enough dumping it all over everybody else's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

Naughty little Ginja Minge doesn't want any nasty sprays and poisons around her block but she is happy enough dumping it all over everybody else's.

---

Graeme, the sentence you typed after the attachment is not just offensive, it is dumb and childish. No matter how solid you think your argument is, if that is the way you engage with people, you are not going to get anywhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ebf

Graeme, the sentence you typed after the attachment is not just offensive, it is dumb and childish. No matter how solid you think your argument is, if that is the way you engage with people, you are not going to get anywhere.

---

Yes it is hard for me to resist the urge to be offensive. As I and many others that served in the same war zone have suffered and our children and our children's children are suffering now. Why because we believed our government when they said Agent Orange
( Produced at Paratutu by Ivan Watkins Dow) would do us no harm.

So just bloody excuse me then for calling her Ginja Minge.

So what are you going to do about it, go out and spread more 1080???.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

Yes it is hard for me to resist the urge to be offensive. As I and many others that served in the same war zone have suffered and our children and our children's children are suffering now. Why because we believed our government when they said Agent Orange
( Produced at Paratutu by Ivan Watkins Dow) would do us no harm.

So just bloody excuse me then for calling her Ginja Minge.

So what are you going to do about it, go out and spread more 1080???.

---

Did you even read what ebf had posted mate?
Sorry but what is it with you anti 1080 people?
Sorry Graham but Ive lost all respect for you on how you handle these threads.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BRADS

Did you even read what ebf had posted mate?
Sorry but what is it with you anti 1080 people?
Sorry Graham but Ive lost all respect for you on how you handle these threads.

---

What is it with you pro 1080 people???. You complain that you hate reading these threads and yet even when the thread is clearly marked as a 1080 thread you are first too it like pigs to a trough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

What is it with you pro 1080 people???. You complain that you hate reading these threads and yet even when the thread is clearly marked as a 1080 thread you are first too it like pigs to a trough.

---

You obvisiouly haven't read this whole thread?
I'm anti 1080 just like you, just don't see the point in going on about.
Im just sick of reading the same shit a few copy and paste in every thread.
You come across as a washed up has been that just wants to moan about the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=BRADS;334640]You obvisiouly haven't read this whole thread?
I'm anti 1080 just like you, just don't see the point in going on about.
Im just sick of reading the same shit a few copy and paste in every thread.
You come across as a washed up has been that just wants to moan about the same thing.

I do read every thread carefully and you will find I have a reasonable grip of the written word me old mate.

Find someone that has contributed more to this Forum the dear old Scribe who was disabled before Christmas without excuse or reason given.

Is it in your own judgement that I am a washed up has been Brads???

If you don't like the 1080 threads its been said before and I will say it again. Don't read them.

Maybe Scribe was put down?
I can think of many members who have contributed more than Scribe ever did.
Why do you need to bombard our forum with your views? We all no about 1080, some of us just chose do something about it rather than moan.....
But yes your right I will stay away from your silly 1080 threads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha ha ha. Cause no one ever saw this thread ending up here. Agent Orange, snails, 1080, and the trough plus poor ol scribble banging on. Who would have thought. Anti 1080, right or wrong I'll tell you one fact for sure. You do yourselves no favours alienating the easy people and will gain about as much traction as a F1 slick on a winters dairy farm race.

[QUOTE=BRADS;334644]Maybe Scribe was put down?
I can think of many members who have contributed more than Scribe ever did.
Why do you need to bombard our forum with your views? We all no about 1080, some of us just chose do something about it rather than moan.....
But yes your right I will stay away from your silly 1080 threads. [QUOTE}

As your views are important to you Brads mine are as equally important to me.

You seem determined to have the last word man. I have been involved with pest control all my life and are still are involved in the same.

But please answer the question anyway "Brads" as you questioned my own ability to read and understand a thread. "In your your own opinion am I a washed up has been that wants to moan about everything.

You two really need to meet then both will realise the other is actually a good bloke, I think you re both pretty straight up and hate 1080. Some are more passionate about it than others
due to their life experiences but its a common fight surely at the end of the day.
TBH you d probably get on very well together...like most of us do . Its no good rubbishing each other on here about something you probably both agree is totally wrong for NZ.
Theres a bigger picture...
It ll lead only to banning.... I cant see any reason to disagree with anti 1080 people because at the end of the day they are right to hate the shite..
One person hates the way another deals with a corrupt disgusting practise " REALLY ???? " :wtfsmilie: :D
Buggered if I know.. Some take every chance to point out political correctness or incorrectness and spend more energy doing so than fighting for the bigger picture... :sick: :sick: :sick:

:cave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Happy

You two really need to meet then both will realise the other is actually a good bloke, I think you re both pretty straight up and hate 1080. Some are more passionate about it than others
due to their life experiences but its a common fight surely at the end of the day.
TBH you d probably get on very well together...like most of us do . Its no good rubbishing each other on here about something you probably both agree is totally wrong for NZ.
Theres a bigger picture...
It ll lead only to banning.... I cant see any reason to disagree with anti 1080 people because at the end of the day they are right to hate the shite..
One person hates the way another deals with a corrupt disgusting practise " REALLY ???? " :wtfsmilie: :D
Buggered if I know.. Some take every chance to point out political correctness or incorrectness and spend more energy doing so than fighting for the bigger picture... :sick: :sick: :sick:

:cave:

---

I enjoyed your post "Happy" You may not have noticed but I have been careful not to rubbish or insult anyone. I wish it was a two way street.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

I enjoyed your post "Happy" You may not have noticed but I have been careful not to rubbish or insult anyone. I wish it was a two way street.

---

MInisters don't count in your world then? Poor old Maggie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kiwijames

MInisters don't count in your world then? Poor old Maggie

---

I am sure its the truth. Can the truth ever be an insult???.

Lets see, whenever someone starts coming out with "if you're not with us you are against us" type statements, that (to me at least) is a pretty clear indication of fundamentalist or extremist thinking... not much point trying to have a reasoned debate with those types.

and Graeme, do you have a wife/mother/sister/daughter ? imagine for a minute that she ends up in public service and makes it to a ministerial post. then some guy comes along, and because he does not like what her department has been doing for the last 30 years, even though she has just been appointed to the position, he starts using sexist and derogatory remarks when referring to her. as someone who has served in the military, and who is supposed to have a better idea of honour than most, does that strike you as honourable or decent behaviour ?

now you might think that what you see as the opposition is not acting in a decent way, and that's fair enough. but what you can control is your own behaviour, and you are letting yourself and your side down by what I have seen here...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ebf

Lets see, whenever someone starts coming out with "if you're not with us you are against us" type statements, that (to me at least) is a pretty clear indication of fundamentalist or extremist thinking... not much point trying to have a reasoned debate with those types.

and Graeme, do you have a wife/mother/sister/daughter ? imagine for a minute that she ends up in public service and makes it to a ministerial post. then some guy comes along, and because he does not like what her department has been doing for the last 30 years, even though she has just been appointed to the position, he starts using sexist and derogatory remarks when referring to her. as someone who has served in the military, and who is supposed to have a better idea of honour than most, does that strike you as honourable or decent behaviour ?

now you might think that what you see as the opposition is not acting in a decent way, and that's fair enough. but what you can control is your own behaviour, and you are letting yourself and your side down by what I have seen here...

---

Refer to remark above

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

I am sure its the truth. Can the truth ever be an insult???.

---

Derogatory insults regarding someone's pigmentation.
Wars have started over less.
Your starting to resemble Colonel Walter E Kurtz more by the day.

You guys are getting your moneys worth out of a thread you say you cant stand.

Well Done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon

You guys are getting your moneys worth out of a thread you say you cant stand.

Well Done.

---

Sorry, who had to have the last word?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kiwijames

Sorry, who had to have the last word?

---

You apparently.

Or me now.

Or whoever posts next...

Is it just me or has this thread just gone off topic:wtfsmilie:

Dam we need some unlike buttons here !
Young against old ha ha. Political correctness ha ha Colonel Kurtz ha ha
Pigmentation ha ha Wars have stared over less ha ha
Funnier than funny thing

After 5 time for beer me thinks

Wont you all just fuck up

For what it is worth, I think Graeme and Woody do a pretty good job, When guys who have history and experience like these guys, it's probably worth taking notice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gapped axe

For what it is worth, I think Graeme and Woody do a pretty good job, When guys who have history and experience like these guys, it's probably worth taking notice.

---

It is being noticed 9 pages now.

Let's be honest though, and just to add to it further it is 9 pages of mostly drivel and mud slinging.
Best bit so far was the story about the Morepork liberating the rat into the fenced sanctuary.
You can only laugh at the irony of that one.

Most have strong beliefs about 1080. However, unless we have a big wig amongst us I doubt, in fact I know we are simply banging our heads against a brick wall.

I don't believe a 1080 debate really deserves 9 pages of korero, especially when some of us are just warming up it seems. [emoji15] But there are always far too many personal attacks in such threads.
In the interest of unity these threads are rarely worth reading and contributing to.
Unfortunately.

Attachment 33727

:)

How many are under the pile they can't see?

I am fairly new to this forum but I spent a long time on another forum - some of it on 1080 issues that have been debated extensively by very knowledgeable people
I retired a couple of years back and spent more time on forums and learned a bit about 1080 - I was horrified to learn about the cruelty of 1080 - information that I picked up from anti 1080 people such as Clyde Graff
I spent a long time learning everything I could about 1080 and was sure that I would be able to find something from a scientist somewhere in the world to stop 1080 use in NZ - but alas - the only information that I have found that has been useful to me came from Charles Eason - from the Cawthron Institute - Cawthron Institute: People People - one of his papers that resolved the cruelty issues for me - An updated review of the toxicology and ecotoxicology of sodium fluoroacetate (1080) in relation to its use as a pest control tool in New Zealand - Sodium fluoroacetate (1080) is a vertebrate pesticide, originally developed in the 1940s and... - New
This indicates that in the final stages of death - animals are likely to have suffered a seizure and are unlikely to experience pain
Don’t get me wrong - I hate 1080 for various reasons - but it may be one of the more effective tools we have to save some of our birds. I do however believe that DOC are ignoring the opportunities for many parts of our bush and high country that could be trapped - as suggested by Marty Foote
I can’t understand why the pro 1080 people continually try to stifle debate about 1080 issues on hunting forums - there are a few on here (they are the same guys on the other forum) that try to swamp debate with their highly educated “speak” where they try to put good ordinary people down
For goodness sake - free speech is one of our great principles - we can actually learn from open debate on any subject - semi political or otherwise
Most of us are hunters or have been hunters in our lifetime - most of us love the environment and most animals that live in it and will do anything to resolve issues for our birds - many of us are actually out there killing predators and saving birds - at considerable time and cost to ourselves
There have been some great ideas floated on the hunting forums - if 1080 issues offend some members then maybe this forum should have a Politics of Hunting section - if you don’t like thinking about 1080 - just don’t go there
I don’t know why Marty Henry got kicked out of here - maybe he was getting political - but he opened up some great debate on the other forum - the man has some great ideas for alternatives to 1080
Some will say that you will never add any value to the 1080 debate if you take an extreme position - such as Clive Graff or Marty Henry - and that the population in general just switch off - maybe - but the general population has been significantly influenced by the Government and DOC publicity machines where money was no object
Only time will tell about 1080 maybe the saviour of our birds - maybe neutral - maybe another environmental disaster - just be patient and give it time - read all you can from Charles Eason and you will know most of what there is to know about 1080 :huh: