Printable View
i find it very ironic and a bit sad that this type of attitude exists amongst a fair amount of the kiwi population.
as a nation that is famous for enjoying the benefits and rewards of extensive travel and work in other parts of the world, why does this attitude still exist ?
how many kiwis live, work, and play all over the world ?
globalisation is a reality - unfortunately, some people only want it to be a one-way street...
exactly ebf, its a global market and we are giving it away for free.
I think you mean "throwing it away"Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Lots of us have (or still do) but we still can't hunt / fish in these "other countries "for free or just the cost of a licence. Nor would they rescue us "for free" if i were required.Quote:
i find it very ironic and a bit sad that this type of attitude exists amongst a fair amount of the kiwi population.
as a nation that is famous for enjoying the benefits and rewards of extensive travel and work in other parts of the world, why does this attitude still exist ?
how many kiwis live, work, and play all over the world ?
globalisation is a reality - unfortunately, some people only want it to be a one-way street...
I have no problem with overseas hunters or fisherman coming over here. Hell I have taken my guests hunting and fishing, they were all surprised to find they could "just buy a licence" and off they could go"
Can a tourist (with out paying a mandatory guide) just rock up in UK or US get a licence and go trout fishing..................um no, game-bird hunting in the US...................um no, big game hunting in the US........................um no, big game hunting in Africa............um no BUT hunting Tahr in NZ Alps with no experience (foolish but entirely possible)....................hell yes
But hey I also think PLBs should be Mandatory to carry in all NP's just to cut down the cost of actually "finding" you when you are lost or broken as it would mean more $$ available for other "hunts for other people"
NZ is a tourism destination which is great for NZ. I agree that they should pay for the right to hunt / Fish, we all do through our taxes. But then what would happen long term? most NZers can't afford to take there families to the tourism spots in our own land because the costs are geared for the oversees dollar. The govt will work out there's money to be made and then who knows what might happen to our so called free hunting.
How many of us have seen all off our beautiful country? Most people I know have seen more of the world than there own country, they are happy to pay the money to do all the things overseas and then come back and complain about the cost of seeing the sights in NZ.
Not sure what I'm trying to say but what really pisses me off is seeing them on a fishing charter and taking / catching a heap of fish which you know they aren't going to eat or send home.
yes and no VC. NZ is at the bottom end of the world, it is not cheap getting here. as Ryan has pointed out before, every single tourist that gets here, does spend money in other ways. without tourist $, most of the small south island towns would simply cease to exist. have you seen what Te Anau looks like when the Milford road is closed ?Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
do we really want to reduce or increase the number of tourists ? how are you going to control access to public land ? will each "foreign" visitor wanting to do do one of the big walks have to pay extra ? how are you going to distinguish a tramper from a hunter or fisherman ? are you going to employ a horde of rangers just to do checking of permits ?
i used to do a lot of travel in Namibia. they significantly raised the national park fees for non-residents (to the point where it was ridiculous - hotel price for a tent site), I simply ended up going somewhere else ... it would be interesting to see how much of NZ's income, especially SI depends of tourism.
it would also be interesting if someone has stats of actual numbers of search-and-rescue for foreigners vs locals. see what the real picture is without the assumption that it is generally some clueless tourist.
and mikee, NZ is unique in that hunting is allowed on public conservation land. that situation does not exist in most of africa (commercial game farms). where you can hunt national parks, the fees are ploughed back into conservation, with such high prices that none of the locals could ever afford it (the extreme other end of what you have here). not sure how it works in mruca...
sorry, but that is bullshit :D i have been here 5 years, and seen more of NZ than most kiwis do in their lifetime. it is scary how many of my kiwi friends have not even been down to fiordland etc. all of it extremely cheap, because we stay in national parks, tramp, camp, fish and do road trips. don't know what "tourism spots" you refer to.Quote:
Originally Posted by screamO
maybe if you want to go stay in flash hotels and do all the adventure tourism rides etc...
and back to the idea of costs for locals vs non-locals. is it actually free for locals to hunt in africa, usa, england etc. how much does it cost in real money terms, how many big macs $ for a license/permit compared to non-local ? or are some of you just assuming that because it is free here, it has to be free for locals elsewhere ?
Well I would like to hunt Pheasants in North Dakita in Mruca. I cannot buy a firearm there as I am an "alien" so I either need to go with a local or engage a guideQuote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Assuming I go with a locale then I need to buy non-resident tags.
See below
Nonresident Licenses and Requirements | North Dakota Game and Fish
Last statement at the end is quite interesting
Quote:
A Nonresident May Not Hunt Game and Fish Department Lands the First Week of Pheasant Season
Nonresidents may not hunt on lands owned or leased by the North Dakota Game and Fish Department, including state wildlife management areas and Private Lands Open To Sportsmen (PLOTS), for the first week of pheasant season. This restriction applies to all types of hunting, not just pheasants. This restriction does not apply to lands owned or managed by other state agencies that may be open to hunting, such as state school lands, federal lands that may be open to hunting, such as U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service waterfowl production areas, or to private lands not enrolled in the Game and Fish PLOTS program.
For a laugh put "hunting nz" into google images. Aside from being choppered in to shoot Tahr and Chamois I think our public land stags are safe from yanks.
FFS! Some people just don't get it.
It is a fucking free for all here regarding hunting for tourists and it shouldn't be.
End of story.
I want something left for my progeny to enjoy. The way it is going there may not be.
Well Dave, explain it to me.
Do you just want to charge hunting tourists more, or all tourists ? How are you going to distinguish between them. How are you going to enforce it ? How much more do you think is fair compared to let's say a fishing license for locals ?
Can you give me an example of another country that allows free public hunting for residents and charges non-residents ?
Is there really that much pressure because of non-residents. The thing that amazes me about NZ is that once you get further than 1 hour from the car park or road-end, you often spend an entire day without seeing another person (local or foreigner).
yeh R93 i think you've hit it. i was gonna say, i think you guys are missing the point.
I'm not looking for answers to the problem, the intention of the post was to find out if "we" think there is or is going to be a problem with non resident overcrowding in the backcountry- possibly affecting our historical options. I don't necessarily think paying is the answer, but may be part of it.
I think the questions being asked and a potential problem being identified is important first.
in reference to some of the other points raised.
I accept that in a lot of countries you have to pay- or ballot- or stick to seasons for hunting.
I accept that if I'm in other countries i should "do as the Romans do " etc.
I accept that when i visit another country i am the visitor, and i am the "alien" entity, and that i should try to assimilate myself with that countries ways/laws etc.
Is it not bad enough already that there seem to be more spotlighting deaths? Poaching in the media-prosecutions? (correct me if I'm wrong).
In say ten years i imagine there may be a lot more freedom hunters, following in the footsteps of Remi Warren and others, who may very well be good keen hunters, bought up on public land fair chase hunting just like us.Will it be the norm in twenty years to turn up to a favorite road end and run into more Americans than Kiwis here for 4 weeks?(btw i like Remi Warren- it appears he is a cool guy, and very much like us Kiwis with Hunting.)
Sorry EBF, but you are out of your depth regarding hunting regulations here and in other countries if you can't answer your own question.
Please find me another country where you and I can just rock up and go for a hunt ourselves before asking how it can be changed here.
I'm not asking for things to change, you guys are ?!?
Do you honestly believe that hunting for your progeny is more under threat from foreign hunters than from local heli operators ?
Is the area you are concerned about more to do with trophy animals ?
Some places in NZ are already becoming like Everest. I can walk 2 hours into some areas and still find muesli bar wraps etc just left where they fall. We suck as far as clean is concerned and its getting worse.
$5.00 rebate on all that type of thing would fix that nelpop
Don't forget that we are not the only country of hunters in the world a lot of overseas hunters are highly skilled and have been hunting for generations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
It has not reached a point yet where its really affecting us or our rights but it will get there.
History shows what happens when you let people in for free that they take advantage.
Ask the Native people of colonised country's our own included.
I don't think overseas hunters are too much of a concern. They are either with guides who should have the appropriate concessions or they hunt with a local. They bring money and subsequently contribute to our GDP.
My main concern is with high density hunting areas such as Clements Rd. I believe we should look at ballot systems in high density public land areas in the interests of safety and game management. This is coming from someone who does enjoy hunting in Clements Rd whenever I feel like it.
@kiwiaviator, the only "foreigners" you'll be targeting with that ballot would be aucklanders :D
in principle, I have no problem with tourists paying a reasonable extra levy for things such as licenses... 10-15% seems fair. if something is free, then obviously 15% of zero is zero.
For the ballots, maybe say something like only 25% of spots available for non-residents. I think you still want to attract overseas visitors as a marketing exercise. make the ballot system ABSOLUTELY transparent, the problem (based on another thread on here) seems to be more of a poorly run ballot system with some guys getting the same block year after year type of thing. ensure that people can only enter once, have a stand-down period for winners etc.
Yes and do whatever they want on private land....not land, the upkeep of which and the administration of, is paid for out off my/our taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
As I said in your previous thread on ballots, and offshore hunters entering them......I don't get reciprocal rights on foreign public lands.
B
It's beyond me that DOC have allowed Heli hunters unfettered access into wilderness areas with there overseas clients & locals aren't allowed heli access into them, I mean for FFS.
They also get a free whack at "ALL" of our ballots & keen local hunters are missing out, Our tax's pay for administrating it, the upkeep on huts etc I don't think it's too much to ask that overseas hunters have to buy tags or pay to get hunting licence, to contribute.
we do it with fishing licences
So what happens to all the hut fees and great walk fees that are paid by all users, Kiwi and foreign alike?
Goes into the poison fund probably
Why the hell should somebody have 25% claim on our hunting rights and not be a resident?Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Its easy to control same as South Africa and other countries your need proof of payment and letter of invite from professional hunting guide to be able to bring your gun and ammo in.
Attract overseas hunters to our public land that in some areas we are already limited and controlled for access to bring in money.
Selling ourselves short I think.
As for a ballot that was suggested by somebody for high traffic areas like Clements Road .
It didn't always have such large number of people and now you want to limit the people who have been hunting there for years because the other half of you cant think outside the square and go somewhere else .
Newsflash there are so many other good places in central Nth Island to camp and hunt that are not plastered all over the local hunting mags and forums you just have to have a look a little bit further away than 30 mins from MacDonald's.
I have never hunted there because of the high crowd factor.
Tell that to the Incas:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mmwsm
Marketing opportunity for NZ tourism, bring in international hunting shows and visitors to showcase NZ as a destination. Much as folks on here seem to hate tourists, the do bring in a fair chunk of money into the economy. If the dairy industry has a wobble (seen the farm gate prices recently ?), what do you think the next big earner for NZ is ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamkiwi
It's free you us, why should it not be free for someone else ? Or maybe you want to go down the slippery slope of tourists having to pay.... wonder how long it takes for some rocket scientist bureaucrat to realize that charging locals is actually an easier option for a quick buck. Bet that would go down as well amongst most locals as having to pay hut fees :ORLY:
Maybe because this is a completely different situation ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamkiwi
In South Africa locals to not hunt for free (most guys I know can barely afford to go hunt once or twice a year). Mammals are not considered introduced pests. Other than National Parks (where international level trophy fees apply - millionaire Americans) hunting is done on commercial game farms. You pay for access, you pay per animal, you pay for guides...
I think trying to compare NZ to Overseas is very difficult.
For example my wife and I visited Denmark last year.
Their hunting for deer from what I could gather was very much like our bird shooting a season of about 3 months.
Didnt appear to be too many restrictions on visitors.
The majority of the country is very developed.
So it wouldn't work here.
For some of us their scenario would be ok.
But be very careful of getting what you wish for most legislation/rules in society are the shotgun approach and apply to all.
Remember to have a coffee and read the original post twice.;)
I have been led to believe that it was Queen Victoria who gave us the queens chain so that we would all have fair and reasonable access to our waterways. I believe that our fore fathers, (and mothers);) introduced game animals to public lands so we would all have fair and reasonable access to hunting. As a born and bred kiwi, I and all my family enjoy, and regard as our birth rite, free, fair and reasonable access to our waterways and public lands to fish and hunt. We pay reasonable licence fees to take some fish and birds. This fee is used to manage the resource. In theory part of our taxes are used to maintain huts roads etc on public (our) land. I suppose in theory our taxes pay for the management or mismanagement of our game animals. I am opposed to any situation whereby our free and reasonable right to access our waterways and public lands, and hunt our game animals and fish and birds is restricted. I am opposed to any management strategy that restricts me having reasonable success when hunting/fishing. In conjunction with reasonable conservation strategies. So, I am opposed to non kiwi's having the privilege of free unrestricted access to my birth rite. They should pay. There could be a case for me being able to invite my friends to hunt with me as my guest. This is why I am comfortable with the game parks. (It's not hunting anyway). So let the foreigners do it and its a good lucrative industry for NZ. But breed your own animals. Keep your thieving hands of ours.
I am joining the conversation and a non-Kiwi who is highly interested to visit NZ for a number of weeks for hunting, fishing (probably deep sea sport fishing, i.e., catch and release) and scuba diving (along with regular touristy things). Honestly, the initial draw was the openness I thought NZ extended to hunters (it appears from this thread that there is a great deal more hostility towards auslaenders than I knew about.)
I would not have an issue with paying a reasonable non-resident license fee but I do not want to be required to have a guide for several reasons. 1) I want to use my hunting skills to locate, stalk and track my game. 2) I don't want to be just taken for a guided "shootfest". 3) In my experience, when guide requirements are implemented there quickly develops a near monopoly on access to land - even to the exclusion of locals.* 4) I want to "be the hiker with a gun" and not have someone yipping in my ear trying to entertain a guest with anecdotal tales. 5) Guides make the cost too excessive for me. One point for those on this thread to consider about a requirement for foreign hunters to use guides, the guides will likely take the hunters to the "best spots" (much like the trout fishing experience) because the guide wants to have happy clients who had a great time and likely provide a nice financial tip at the end.
* That is what has happened in California for the large game. Anyone can get a license and boar tags but there are not many public areas where one can go and hunt boar. The elk tags are provided to Ranchers who, in turn, sell them to the guides for stupid money.
It is my understanding that the red deer is seen by DOC as a pest. See: Deer: Animal Pests
https://geog397.wiki.otago.ac.nz/ind...in_New_Zealand
I don't have enough information to be able to evaluate the numbers of foreign hunters come to NZ, how many animals they kill, and if there has been an overall impact on the quality and quantity of animals. No one on this thread has provided such empirical data. From what I read on the above sites, recreational hunting is not enough to moderate the population of non-native ungulates in NZ. None-the-less, it is certainly possible that continued unregulated hunting "could" result in overhunting as has happened in many countries. Again, as an outsider without any empirical data I have no idea how far along NZ has gone down that path.
Is there a great deal of animosity towards foreign hunters in NZ?
Scotty
Well I've had a coffee n might need another one to read all the discussions ......
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No summitdogracing, you won't find much animosity directed at you. You will generally find us friendly and welcoming. It's not your fault that we manage our affairs poorly. You will hear animosity directed at bureaucrats and politicians who do things we don't want and don't do what we do want.
@summitdogracing ;
I have no real issue with hunters coming to NZ to hunt under their "own steam" provided they are prepared for the conditions and can look after themselves in the conditions. (We have a large number of Tourists here (hunters included ) who totally underestimate our outdoors and end up needing to be found then rescued)
I suspect most NZ hunters might feel similar
I actually enjoy taking people fishing (and this would stretch to hunting if I had any hunting skills to speak of :) ) for NO financial gain at all. I like to meet others from other parts of the world who share similar interests.
My issue is that it appears foreign hunters can enter the Ballots for blocks alongside NZ hunters at the same cost and in some cases NZ hunters miss out on the ballots thru shear numbers of the foreign applicants or the way foreigners (an locals ) organis their entry for maximum possible result.
I believe that PREFERENCE should be given to these Blocks being primarilly for Local hunters at the peak times.
Come for a look around Africa at the moment where they are selling there soul to Chinese investors and contractors its modern colonisation on a grand scale and now the yanks are hitting the panic button and going for a slice of the pie.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mmwsm
there will be no advantage to the blacks of Africa out of it in the long term as the contractors are not training locals in anything over than manual labour.
The govt are paying them with large tracts of land in the right places.
people take advantage if you allow a easy path its human nature
If we keep on the path of letting foreign hunters have a free range on our ballots for our hunting grounds we will lose out in the end and the locals in those areas are already losing.
No offence to our aussie neighbour's but they are already working out that they can jump on a plane for low cost and hunt our grounds as there's close up.
I think it would be sad to prevent free hunting, to residence. Maybe non residence could buy something akin to a fishing licence for public land other than ballot blocks.
However I do not think that non residence should be aloud to go in ballot blocks free hunting, they should do so via a guided system or invite by resident (could be scamed by non residents I guess)
I do not want to loose my right to hunt, fish, walk freely in any way or form. I consider it a fortunate right to be able to put free lean organic meat on the table, and have reasonable access to country side.
I think that DOC and Government need to rethink the management of game, it is a resource to be looked after not destruction and total eradication of pests.
I also think they need to provide better science and control over poisoning, and also work with industry groups and other stake holders to develop other options for pest eradication like possums, develop stronger markets for the possum by products and ease up on the poisoning of the larger game animals and other native invertebrates. After all these animals are also a resource.
One aspect of this discussion has been the numbers of tourists requiring sar to get them out of trouble.
Here are some numbers, and although a little out of date, they are not likely to have changed dramatically.
Year 06_07
People assisted 1774, of which 300 were tourists. @17%
Year 07_08
2067 assisted. 158 were tourists. 8%
Year 9
08_09
Total assisted 1991 of which 245 were tourists. 12 %
These figures are a cross the board and will include tramping, hunting, boating etc.
I suspect these numbers are lower than most would imagine.
Thanks pengiun, much as i suspected :D
Bloody ill-equiped, clueless LOCALS :D
Now you gone dunnit ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Sorry. No offence intended, but this data is quite meaningless unless we have total number of NZrs involved and total number of foreign involved. Or percentage of kiwis needing help and percentage of foreign visitors needing help. Just as a ridiculous eg. if in year 07-08 there were 500 visitors involved in the outdoors that's 50% needing help. But if there were 1000 involved thats only 25%.
Thank you to all who have taken the time to read my first post, and follow the instructions and stick to the topic.
To be clear, i doubt many Kiwis have any problem with foreigners in our back country.
Maths is not my strong subject, but I would have thought that if, for instance, there were 1991 people assisted, and as stated, 245 were tourists, does it not make sense that the remaining 1746 were most likely kiwis. Or am I fik
Had a few coffees and here are my opinions.
A - Yes, if hunting resources are not managed correctly (better than they currently are) then kiwi hunters may eventually start to resent the ease that foreign hunters can come here and deplete further a resource that will end up in decline.
The population of NZ is only going to grow, there will be more hunters, more pressure on wild game animal populations and less to go round for everyone!
B- I think in 10, 20 or 30 years time that there could be regret in 1080ing the shit out of every living wild mammal and allowing heli hunting on public lands to decrease game animal populations to a level that a kiwi hunter struggles to find an animal to put meat on the table...I think that foreign hunters are the least of New Zealand's problem as far as animal numbers are concerned and I think that other factors are of much grater concern - Ballots are a different thing entirely and there will probably need to be a regulated number of places allocated for foreign hunters to prevent kiwis loosing out unfairly.
C - I think a ballot system on all public land would be detrimental to NZ on the whole as this would restrict a lot of potential tourism and local economies would suffer. Increasing the cost of licensing would be a better idea and foreign hunters would still pay as long as it is kept reasonable.
D - Just restrict where they are allowed to hunt periodically, foreign hunters are used to a LOT of rules and regulations regarding hunting seasons for different sexes and types of animals and would generally be very understanding because of all the rules that they already put up with in their own countries.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk