Thread: Newshub attacking Sika

Originally Posted by NIMROD

Fact..... a good straight up and down friend of mine, who shall be nameless, ( but he owned an R44 ) kept some facts and figures of how many deer his clients shot in the Kaweka's each year, mainly to try and convince DOC that their ridiculous landing fees were counter productive, but he also researched and recorded the weight of boned out Sika that were brought out of the Kaweka's by his clients, and the average weight was 7 Kg over all the age groups and sexes. That's not a misprint.
And Cam Speedy did an in depth survey of Sika on a neighboring block with similar over population problem and similar mountain beech forest & manuka, and the average whole carcass weight was 25Kg
I struggled with those figures, so started weighing each boned out Sika I carried out in my pack with my other gear, and was most pissed off to find my pack wasn't as heavy as by shoulders reckoned.
I think DOC's aerial search and destroy / Mountain beech recovery program in the Kaweka FP ran for 13 seasons from memory ( a season being from 01 Oct to 28 Feb each year )

Cams data on the “ neighbouring” block showed adult hinds at 18kg and bone structures much much smaller than normal

Sika can live on the smell of an oily rag but it stunts them

Hinds reabsorbing embryo and/or losing fertility capabilities just to survive in the lean years testament to their endurance

Intriguing thread. I’m a South Island tops hunter and spent a few trips into Clements Road and haven’t seen deer. I was starting to wonder if it’s my bush wacking rodeo style that was the reason for not seeing any deer. Then it dawned on me. They must be working from home��

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Message me if you need a hand.

If theres another seat in the chopper give me a yell too.

Originally Posted by NIMROD

Fact..... a good straight up and down friend of mine, who shall be nameless, ( but he owned an R44 ) kept some facts and figures of how many deer his clients shot in the Kaweka's each year, mainly to try and convince DOC that their ridiculous landing fees were counter productive, but he also researched and recorded the weight of boned out Sika that were brought out of the Kaweka's by his clients, and the average weight was 7 Kg over all the age groups and sexes. That's not a misprint.
And Cam Speedy did an in depth survey of Sika on a neighboring block with similar over population problem and similar mountain beech forest & manuka, and the average whole carcass weight was 25Kg
I struggled with those figures, so started weighing each boned out Sika I carried out in my pack with my other gear, and was most pissed off to find my pack wasn't as heavy as by shoulders reckoned.
I think DOC's aerial search and destroy / Mountain beech recovery program in the Kaweka FP ran for 13 seasons from memory ( a season being from 01 Oct to 28 Feb each year )

That pretty much mirrors our experience.
Two Xmas's ago was in there. we shot six Sika, and carried them all out - 3 deer to one pack. Pretty much large lambs on long legs.

Originally Posted by Tankd

There is a funny thing which happens , trees grow upwards . That is why Pine plantations plant more tree than necessary and then thin them out , only in this instance there are no chainsaws only nature .
Nature is of a "Boom and Bust" nature , one thing will dominate until there is a collapse what the "Conservators" are always trying to do in short is to play God . Nature is not some garden to be dictated to as though it was by the design of man . It is governed by the rule of "Might is right" and whom ever rules is King of the Hill until they are knocked off. It is the arrogance of some to think that a deer should be of a certain weight as to massage their arrogance so they can wave their dick around to show how big they are while forgetting just how insignificant they are .

But, deer definitely change the make up of the plant species which survive.

Originally Posted by XR500

A picture paints a thousand words. Sika roar 2023.


Attachment 239012

Never been there so will ask the obvious question. Where is the undergrowth?

Originally Posted by kawekakid

Ive seen the corruption on deer pallet counts for a whole week in the Kawekas .The crap those guys spin is a joke . Only do pallet counts on sunny morning faces . Only walk 10 metres from the track and close to water . The rest of the areas never get checked

How many years ago was this?

Originally Posted by Tahr

This time last year I thought I would do a trip to the Kaweka BR campsite by myself. Chris used to back load me in and out of there for a few hundred dollars. With Chris closed down Heli Sika were the only option. I emailed them asking for a price - said I was flexible and was happy to fit in with a back load or what ever.

Here's their reply:

$2020 incl GST for the H500 (max 400kg payload) + DOC land fees of $50.60 each.

So I haven't been into the Kawekas since Chris left.

I did exactly the same and got the same response

The beauty of collective knowledge on here (think tanks) solutions can be found.

There’s plenty of grumbling for various reasons about Helisika.. Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but it’s possible they’re a big part of the problem.
Logically they want reasonable numbers to keep their clients coming back.
They have no competition.
Iwi and Doc are wanting to collect $$ along the way so it must surely contribute to the absurdly high flight costs, which discourage hunters such as Tahr, which in turn reduces pressure or population control.

Perhaps climate change also plays a part? If the winters aren’t as long and hard, it’s probable more animals survive the winter that may not have made it 20 or 30 years ago?

My assumption is: despite the growing popularity of hunting, the time-cost pressures mean the number of younger hunters who head into the hills compared to the 60’s 70’s 80’s is less.
I grew up as a kid in Tok hearing stories of shift workers heading into Kaimanawa’s Kaweka’s on their 4 days off. On CT 90’s poaching the back of stations, spotlighting, and selling, distributing meat around town. Flying for a very low cost in a fixed wing deep into the park.
Thinking back now; it was considered a Robin Hood type endeavour, whereas now days it’s criminal, and we frown upon it.
They were fit hard men, who were hunters, not road end, can shooting pissheads. They shot a lot of deer, everything was fair game, no leaving hinds and stags that weren’t old enough, or didn’t have enough length on one tine.
They could sell their meat, and provide for their families.
Even our societal changes have an impact. These same men were hard fellas who had the treat em mean keep em keen attitude, where their wives families were concerned.
They were the sole breadwinner for the family. They did what they wanted, when they wanted. They most certainly didn’t need to earn “brownie points” to get a “leave pass” to go hunting…

A raft of health & safety measures from food safety to personal safety, have made us risk adverse weaklings.

Even thinking about the gang problems (a bit of a tangent I know) I recall a gang getting a bit out of control and dominant in town. It was these same shift working forestry men who sorted it out. Big dust up out on state Highway 1.
Lead news story on national news the next night, but problem solved. The gang members slunk off back to their pads and pulled their heads in.


To summarise before I get into my Sunday:
I think it’s fairly reasonable/obvious to assume the reduced hunting pressures, and changes in hunting and societal attitudes have led to the growth in numbers.

The question is how do we get hunters who aren't time poor, into the hills?
Perhaps with the possible changes in the wind, and a minister for hunting and fishing there can be some constructive collaboration with Doc.
They need to build a collaborative relationship with hunters and utilise these resources at their disposal. Find a way to economically put hunters into the areas they need to be.
This will raise the hackles of the farmers on here, but they need to ensure access to doc estate across private land, they need to punish those who prevent and allow the build up of numbers.
Lastly content producers like the Duley’s, Red Stag hunters, and those of you who are into your video/YouTube production.
Start knocking over hinds and lots of them. Rather than taking all the meat of one, leaving nothing. Take the back steaks and hind quarters, but take 3 or 4, 6 or 7.
Film it, normalise it.
I’m as guilty as anyone, last few trips down south I’ve seen/watched 30 - 40 deer a day, taken ONE.

great post Laurie......absolutely spot on.....but one point I will dissagreeon is the climate change bit..because if the winter is less harsh,the vegetation wont have as long of dormant period so should be better....yes will kill off less deer,but should be better for the plants.

Originally Posted by Rushy

Never been there so will ask the obvious question. Where is the undergrowth?

In multiple deer's tummies

There has been so many "End is Nigh" emotional piece recently this article will probably fall on def ears. If the cange in government encourages more people to become hunters and shooters surely this will have a positive effect? Encouragig local hunting clubs (instead of shutting down their ranges) and improving park access and huts is a relatively cheap way to lower numbers surely.

Re the heli costs, those things aren't cheap to run which is obvious but a lot of the older time outfits had the hard word from the regulator and had to tighten up on process and procedure which adds cost. People bleated about the numbers of machines (noise and amenity values) and density of people getting carted in - which meant higher costs as you couldn't run two parties one in one out so one trip non-productive. And DOC etc getting involved with permit systems to try and control the people whinging which meant higher costs... Newer machines with higher costs including limited start cycles doesn't help either. You can't really point the finger at a company charging a flight hour rate which covers all the maintenance and operational procedure costs vs $50 flat rate walk in and going broke in a year...

Originally Posted by No.3

Re the heli costs, those things aren't cheap to run which is obvious but a lot of the older time outfits had the hard word from the regulator and had to tighten up on process and procedure which adds cost. People bleated about the numbers of machines (noise and amenity values) and density of people getting carted in - which meant higher costs as you couldn't run two parties one in one out so one trip non-productive. And DOC etc getting involved with permit systems to try and control the people whinging which meant higher costs... Newer machines with higher costs including limited start cycles doesn't help either. You can't really point the finger at a company charging a flight hour rate which covers all the maintenance and operational procedure costs vs $50 flat rate walk in and going broke in a year...

Thats a reasonable justification story and Im not bagging Heli Sika. It's about affordability. Chris had a small machine close to the trees. I could afford to use him. Even at a 50% hike in his fees I still would have. He's gone and now there is no affordable alternative. The trees are the poorer by my absence

Originally Posted by Lauries Hut

The beauty of collective knowledge on here (think tanks) solutions can be found.

There’s plenty of grumbling for various reasons about Helisika.. Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but it’s possible they’re a big part of the problem.
Logically they want reasonable numbers to keep their clients coming back.
They have no competition.
Iwi and Doc are wanting to collect $$ along the way so it must surely contribute to the absurdly high flight costs, which discourage hunters such as Tahr, which in turn reduces pressure or population control.

Perhaps climate change also plays a part? If the winters aren’t as long and hard, it’s probable more animals survive the winter that may not have made it 20 or 30 years ago?

My assumption is: despite the growing popularity of hunting, the time-cost pressures mean the number of younger hunters who head into the hills compared to the 60’s 70’s 80’s is less.
I grew up as a kid in Tok hearing stories of shift workers heading into Kaimanawa’s Kaweka’s on their 4 days off. On CT 90’s poaching the back of stations, spotlighting, and selling, distributing meat around town. Flying for a very low cost in a fixed wing deep into the park.
Thinking back now; it was considered a Robin Hood type endeavour, whereas now days it’s criminal, and we frown upon it.
They were fit hard men, who were hunters, not road end, can shooting pissheads. They shot a lot of deer, everything was fair game, no leaving hinds and stags that weren’t old enough, or didn’t have enough length on one tine.
They could sell their meat, and provide for their families.
Even our societal changes have an impact. These same men were hard fellas who had the treat em mean keep em keen attitude, where their wives families were concerned.
They were the sole breadwinner for the family. They did what they wanted, when they wanted. They most certainly didn’t need to earn “brownie points” to get a “leave pass” to go hunting…

A raft of health & safety measures from food safety to personal safety, have made us risk adverse weaklings.

Even thinking about the gang problems (a bit of a tangent I know) I recall a gang getting a bit out of control and dominant in town. It was these same shift working forestry men who sorted it out. Big dust up out on state Highway 1.
Lead news story on national news the next night, but problem solved. The gang members slunk off back to their pads and pulled their heads in.


To summarise before I get into my Sunday:
I think it’s fairly reasonable/obvious to assume the reduced hunting pressures, and changes in hunting and societal attitudes have led to the growth in numbers.

The question is how do we get hunters who aren't time poor, into the hills?
Perhaps with the possible changes in the wind, and a minister for hunting and fishing there can be some constructive collaboration with Doc.
They need to build a collaborative relationship with hunters and utilise these resources at their disposal. Find a way to economically put hunters into the areas they need to be.
This will raise the hackles of the farmers on here, but they need to ensure access to doc estate across private land, they need to punish those who prevent and allow the build up of numbers.
Lastly content producers like the Duley’s, Red Stag hunters, and those of you who are into your video/YouTube production.
Start knocking over hinds and lots of them. Rather than taking all the meat of one, leaving nothing. Take the back steaks and hind quarters, but take 3 or 4, 6 or 7.
Film it, normalise it.
I’m as guilty as anyone, last few trips down south I’ve seen/watched 30 - 40 deer a day, taken ONE.

I also think a culture change in hunting may factor in too. A lot of my generation aren’t into bush hunting. Not bothered on learning how to do it. Sika in the Kawekas are mostly bush deer and it can be low percentage hunting sometimes.
A lot of people want easy deer on slips and tops. Not hard won deer from the back of nowhere. There are still plenty that do, but the number of guys I meet in there with long range rigs is easily double what I would meet in the more heavily bushed country in there.
Surely that has some impact. I think the park has more pressure than ever but its concentrated on the open stuff more so than in the bush. Its still relatively simple to find a bush catchment with no one in it both in the front and back country. But finding a set of tops that doesnt have a hunting party there from September through to May is a little more challenging.

Just my thoughts.