Thread: the OFF TOPIC to Stags shot 21 (discussion of wild animal management)

Originally Posted by gimp

Antler quality for trophy hunting is not a good sell to the general non-hunting public as a reason for game animal management. It's a non-starter. The words "Trophy Hunting" bring to mind all the worst connotations of hunting.

In the early days of our wild deer herds many well heeled hunters traveled here to hunt. As the trophy potential of herds decreased so to did interest in hunting here. Overseas hunters and their money saved the Tahr. Overseas fishers ensure a non deserved protection of trout over indigenous fauna. Improving the trophy value of herds improves their value and subsequent preservation IMO ( not withstanding all the sensible comments made around balancing population with habitat). Wolves anyone ?

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Overseas hunters and their money saved the Tahr.

Can you expand on this? Do you mean the moratorium on WARO in the 1980s? My understanding was that was largely due to the NZDA but I obviously wasn't around at the time so am willing to be corrected.

Tahr were never really in danger of eradication realistically (witness DOC efforts to remove tahr from outside the feral range for 30+ years, unsuccessfully and at great expense per animal once populations get low e.g. Waikite, Arawhata, Thompson Mountains, etc) but may have been reduced to a level where they were not a viable hunting resource indefinitely.

Originally Posted by gimp

Can you expand on this? Do you mean the moratorium on WARO in the 1980s? My understanding was that was largely due to the NZDA but I obviously wasn't around at the time so am willing to be corrected.

Tahr were never really in danger of eradication realistically (witness DOC efforts to remove tahr from outside the feral range for 30+ years, unsuccessfully and at great expense per animal once populations get low e.g. Waikite, Arawhata, Thompson Mountains, etc) but may have been reduced to a level where they were not a viable hunting resource indefinitely.

What I was referring to was the most recent 'culls'. The international Trophy Hunting Industry is worth millions and millions of dollars, NZ's slice adds up to I think fifty million plus to overseas hunters, those hunters being the highest value tourists that this country attracts - hunters will spend 15 to 20 thousand US on a one week hunt. This has not gone un-noticed by Govt and there is potential to easily double that to a one hundred million dollar industry with little environmental impact.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

What I was referring to was the most recent 'culls'. The international Trophy Hunting Industry is worth millions and millions of dollars, NZ's slice adds up to I think fifty million plus to overseas hunters, those hunters being the highest value tourists that this country attracts - hunters will spend 15 to 20 thousand US on a one week hunt. This has not gone un-noticed by Govt and there is potential to easily double that to a one hundred million dollar industry with little environmental impact.

I'm not sure I believe that, the culls went ahead pretty much exactly as planned I don't think anything we did stopped anything this cull. The biggest saving grace being an election that removed an antihunting agenda driven minister of conservation and that unfortunate helicopter accident. Maybe you could say that them targetting nannies was a win but realistically I think alot of bulls were still shot as seen by the high number of dead heads being turned up by hunters.

Originally Posted by Stocky

I'm not sure I believe that, the culls went ahead pretty much exactly as planned I don't think anything we did stopped anything this cull. The biggest saving grace being an election that removed an antihunting agenda driven minister of conservation and that unfortunate helicopter accident. Maybe you could say that them targetting nannies was a win but realistically I think alot of bulls were still shot as seen by the high number of dead heads being turned up by hunters.

A bull Tahr is worth seven to ten grand as a trophy. The point of the Trophy industry is that enough bulls should be left to sustain that industry, and they were. Fish and Game have made requests for higher licence charges for overseas fishers. This has for the most part been rejected as trout fishing is advertised by the Govt as a tourist attraction. So although the govt does not advertise / promote NZ as a hunting destination the income it produces, like fishing is not un-noticed. Put a value on something and it will be protected and managed

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

A bull Tahr is worth seven to ten grand as a trophy. The point of the Trophy industry is that enough bulls should be left to sustain that industry, and they were. Fish and Game have made requests for higher licence charges for overseas fishers. This has for the most part been rejected as trout fishing is advertised by the Govt as a tourist attraction. So although the govt does not advertise / promote NZ as a hunting destination the income it produces, like fishing is not un-noticed. Put a value on something and it will be protected and managed

I think your prices are high especially once you remove the other costs of the hunt. Issue is there's heaps of bulls on private too a friend guides heaps of them in South Canterbury. I agree with we need to put a value in it I just don't think that the value in public land hunting is there or that it had any significant factor on the Tahr Cull.

Originally Posted by bigbear

Soon as you go to a management system for stags or tag system there will be a cost, It will become a rich man sport.
We are all protective about our big game animal but they are a pest

Not entirely.............. a phrase used is "if it pays it stays" when it comes to political stuff ....... so say for example in the National Park only, the Doc or Parks mob had "limited entry hunting" tags available, each hunter got Tags with their permit it allows 4x Hinds and 1x Stag........ just say. for $100-200??? an from there after, Stag tags can be purchase for $300 ?? Extra per tag...........
this gives each hunter 5 shots , 5 deer, Freezer full, conservation in mind and homie gets his Stag... an if Homie wants to shoot 5 stags, Pay up, or hunt Private or /State forest. not the Big country for Stags.........


Its not really worth exrpessing this ideology here but you can think of it as you wish, but American and the like all Seem to get by prety well, OTC, LEH, .......... mostly aussies and kiwis have head in bum a little too much to even begin to openly discuss a potential "tag" system and mostly because theres 405 ways to skin that Taggy cat , so il stop there but it is the way of the future if its to be successful with Populations and even having animals to hunt etc............................ period.

the whole pest thing is done an dusted, $$$$ Billion have been spent to date an there is just as many deer today as was any other day of pest erradicatin...

no futher elaboration on that as needs to be a big colab and someone would need to just take a control and do it, but then i can imagine the whinge fest.... fark

Originally Posted by gimp

Ungulates in NZ require management of some kind under current legislation to minimise impacts on native biodiversity. To maintain the social license for preserving a huntable population of any ungulates in the future, it seems likely that hunters need to be able to demonstrate value in some way commensurate to cover the costs to manage the population.

Essentially: User pays in the end.

Yeah so think about thatm Every $$ go into American Tags or hunting industry, trickles back to the hunting and Game industry...... hunters fund their own conservation in a round about way and openly know that happens with their taxes..... but its only Aussie and Kiwis who kick up a stink about paying a few bucks for licenses or whatever (which could be taxed and trickled down) as the aussies and kiwis are superior and are legendary cullers........for these pest beasts........ lol rolleyes ok.

if it pays it stays,

Originally Posted by Stocky

I think your prices are high especially once you remove the other costs of the hunt. Issue is there's heaps of bulls on private too a friend guides heaps of them in South Canterbury. I agree with we need to put a value in it I just don't think that the value in public land hunting is there or that it had any significant factor on the Tahr Cull.

always guna be deer but its been mentioned before by ya, once the gunships, poisons and all that happens, it deters very good ethical hunters an good people in genera lfrom going hunting............if waro went proper hard on the Wanaka road ballot block areas (openly and publically about it an not closet poofter behaviours) then i dont think Wanaka Roar bllot would have Any entrants................. which would mean Doc makes no money, Why? cos Doc just KILLED the one thing people pay to go shoot.