A-Cat semi-auto mag capacity

Been following a thread on the Other Forum (I'm a slut like that) about magazine capacity...

from the Arms Act:
"military style semi-automatic firearm means a firearm that is
a semi-automatic firearm having one or more of the following features:
a magazine (other than .22) that
(a) is capable of holding more than 7 cartridges; or
(b) is detachable, and by it's appearance indicates that it is capable of holding more than 10 cartridges".

The poster comments: "...a detachable 10 shot mag is permitted as long as it doesn't look like it takes more than 10 shots. This is a change from the first definition of MSSA
where the detachable mag capacity was 7 shot".

So...I have an A-Cat licence. I have a couple of steel 10 shot mags for my AR that have been factory pinned to 5 shot.
Would like to grab my power drill and drill out the rivet to restore capacity to 10 shot.

Is this legal? Would appreciate your opinion.

I have always been under the understanding that a mag capable of holding any more than 7 rounds in a center fire semi auto that is A-cat is illegal.
So you could potentially modify your 5 round mags to hold an extra 2 shots but no more.

That being said, more knowledgeable people will probably correct me.

If you insert a magazine capable of holding more than 7 rounds into your A-cat center-fire semi-auto rifle you're illegally converting it into an MSSA.

Having the appearance of holding 10 rounds is a concession to the fact that most magazines manufactured in the world of similar capacity are 5 or 10 rounders.

Your 10 shot mags are allowed to hold up to 7 rounds. You can de-pin them and re-pin them in a different spot to go from 5 to 7 shots.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rockland

So...I have an A-Cat licence. I have a couple of steel 10 shot mags for my AR that have been factory pinned to 5 shot.
Would like to grab my power drill and drill out the rivet to restore capacity to 10 shot.

---

Don't.

Spend the time and money like everyone else who has endorsements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Recoil

If you insert a magazine capable of holding more than 7 rounds into your A-cat center-fire semi-auto rifle you're illegally converting it into an MSSA.

Having the appearance of holding 10 rounds is a concession to the fact that most magazines manufactured in the world of similar capacity are 5 or 10 rounders.

---

+1

The (b) above means you cannot pin an 11 round or greater mag to 7 or less and have it as A-cat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Recoil

If you insert a magazine capable of holding more than 7 rounds into your A-cat center-fire semi-auto rifle you're illegally converting it into an MSSA.

Having the appearance of holding 10 rounds is a concession to the fact that most magazines manufactured in the world of similar capacity are 5 or 10 rounders.

---

Got stopped by cops on way home random breath thing, passed that but they saw the gun bag in the back asked to haul it out and show license. One copper sees its an sks with fullsize mag (but pinned at 7) gets a bit bolshi. Thank god for the sgt there who sorted it or off to the station it would have been

As I said on that thread, Flintlock's interpretation is not correct. :wtfsmilie:

That guy has no clue what he's on about. The appearance rule is to stop you pinning a 30 rounder to 7 rounds.

Thanks for the responses fellas, looks like the drill's not an option!

I see Spear Mags have 3 x 7 shot mags for $150 so might go with that.

Kscott- yeah I will consider applying for an E endorsement, would make sense as I do a bit of pest control work.

Thanks again everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Got stopped by cops on way home random breath thing, passed that but they saw the gun bag in the back asked to haul it out and show license. One copper sees its an sks with fullsize mag (but pinned at 7) gets a bit bolshi. Thank god for the sgt there who sorted it or off to the station it would have been

---

If they had arrested you the best thing would've been to use the right to remain silent....

If they hadn't then getting a lawyer and their advice would've been to; decline the offer to answer verbal questions but to answer written questions only and to fully cooperate with police In their investigation.

It's much like changing your firearms storage, you don't actually have to go into the station to do it, a simple letter to the arms officer will suffice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rockland

Thanks for the responses fellas, looks like the drill's not an option!

I see Spear Mags have 3 x 7 shot mags for $150 so might go with that.

Kscott- yeah I will consider applying for an E endorsement, would make sense as I do a bit of pest control work.

Thanks again everyone.

---

It's worth the effort. The current number of shooters who go fuck you I'll do what I want with endorsements is high and disappointing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rock river arms hunter

It's much like changing your firearms storage, you don't actually have to go into the station to do it, a simple letter to the arms officer will suffice.

---

Worst. Advice. Ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kscott

Worst. Advice. Ever.

---

And your advice would be?.........what?

To be honest we just text our AO for changes of address.... (Her request)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rock river arms hunter

If they had arrested you the best thing would've been to use the right to remain silent....

If they hadn't then getting a lawyer and their advice would've been to; decline the offer to answer verbal questions but to answer written questions only and to fully cooperate with police In their investigation.

It's much like changing your firearms storage, you don't actually have to go into the station to do it, a simple letter to the arms officer will suffice.

---

Here's a piece of advice, if you have a reasonable excuse/reason then tell the cop. No point in making them guess/assume what your reason might be and it will make it a lot easier on yourself. They're not the enemy if you've done nothing wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jexla

To be honest we just text our AO for changes of address.... (Her request)

---

Isn't there an online form? Pretty sure that's how I did it last time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rock river arms hunter

And your advice would be?.........what?

---

Sorry my bad, I mis-read your post. I blame old age.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savage1

Here's a piece of advice, if you have a reasonable excuse/reason then tell the cop. No point in making them guess/assume what your reason might be and it will make it a lot easier on yourself. They're not the enemy if you've done nothing wrong.

---

As this relates to my previous post a little more detail is I feel in order. Things started off ok, checked license then wanted to look at the rifle so I open the case thats when it took a turn for the worst. Oh you havnt removed the bolt, and the magazine is still on, I explain its an sks semiauto, the bolt is a little hard to remove, and the magazine is fixed, it dont come off. Whats the orange thing? its a chamber flag they show its not loaded. So you carry it loaded sometimes do you? Only when Im hunting not otherwise.
At this point I got a bad feeling
about where this seemed to be going.
Well its a mssa and you dont have an endorsement for that, I try explaining that it is a cat but get told to shut up and step away from the car. He takes the rifle over to a patrol car and talks to the guy inside, there is some arm waving and finger pointing in my direction then the driver gets out. He opens the case, lifts the rifle out drops the mag open looks at it, closes it back, up shoulders the thing then puts it back in the case and wanders over alone. Hands me it back apologises about the other guys behaviour (not always the highest calibre personell on daytime booze bus checkpoints) and talks guns for a bit wanted to know what i thought of the sparc and how the days shooting had been. Left feeling a lot better but still think of what could have happened and how long it would have taken to sort it out.

Safer communities, together. But preferably without that egg.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

As this relates to my previous post a little more detail is I feel in order. Things started off ok, checked license then wanted to look at the rifle so I open the case thats when it took a turn for the worst. Oh you havnt removed the bolt, and the magazine is still on, I explain its an sks semiauto, the bolt is a little hard to remove, and the magazine is fixed, it dont come off. Whats the orange thing? its a chamber flag they show its not loaded. So you carry it loaded sometimes do you? Only when Im hunting not otherwise.
At this point I got a bad feeling
about where this seemed to be going.
Well its a mssa and you dont have an endorsement for that, I try explaining that it is a cat but get told to shut up and step away from the car. He takes the rifle over to a patrol car and talks to the guy inside, there is some arm waving and finger pointing in my direction then the driver gets out. He opens the case, lifts the rifle out drops the mag open looks at it, closes it back, up shoulders the thing then puts it back in the case and wanders over alone. Hands me it back apologises about the other guys behaviour (not always the highest calibre personell on daytime booze bus checkpoints) and talks guns for a bit wanted to know what i thought of the sparc and how the days shooting had been. Left feeling a lot better but still think of what could have happened and how long it would have taken to sort it out.

---

So he knows that MSSAs exist (but not much more detail than that), but not what a chamber flag is? Huh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

As this relates to my previous post a little more detail is I feel in order. Things started off ok, checked license then wanted to look at the rifle so I open the case thats when it took a turn for the worst. Oh you havnt removed the bolt, and the magazine is still on, I explain its an sks semiauto, the bolt is a little hard to remove, and the magazine is fixed, it dont come off. Whats the orange thing? its a chamber flag they show its not loaded. So you carry it loaded sometimes do you? Only when Im hunting not otherwise.
At this point I got a bad feeling
about where this seemed to be going.
Well its a mssa and you dont have an endorsement for that, I try explaining that it is a cat but get told to shut up and step away from the car. He takes the rifle over to a patrol car and talks to the guy inside, there is some arm waving and finger pointing in my direction then the driver gets out. He opens the case, lifts the rifle out drops the mag open looks at it, closes it back, up shoulders the thing then puts it back in the case and wanders over alone. Hands me it back apologises about the other guys behaviour (not always the highest calibre personell on daytime booze bus checkpoints) and talks guns for a bit wanted to know what i thought of the sparc and how the days shooting had been. Left feeling a lot better but still think of what could have happened and how long it would have taken to sort it out.

---

Well that sounds fun. I'd be making a careful mental note of badge number (not asking him, don't want to piss him off even more) and then ringing the local arms officer the next day and just having a general chat with them about the situation. If one of the local bobbies isn't clear on firearms law that's not great and they probably need to know to stop further incidents from happening and potentially escalating. Regardless if I'm in the right or not I've never really wanted to be the guy who ends up in a cell or having the AOS called out because of a case of mistaken identity or ignorance.I'm not meaning ringing up the arms officer and giving him a bollacking but more just a "hey ah, just wanted to clarify a situation I ran into yesterday, had my A cat SKS in the car in the case, barrel flag, regular traffic stop, they saw the case etc, what's the story here, I was under the impression that was the legit way of doing things, this guy thinks otherwise." That's just me though. Also this kind of thing is the reason why I lock my cases whenever there is a rifle in them, just making it even more obvious that I'm not a numpty. Good that the other guy was there to slap his car mate around the head.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kscott

Sorry my bad, I mis-read your post. I blame old age.

---

Hahaha not to worry! I don't have that as I am not "old" lol!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

As this relates to my previous post a little more detail is I feel in order. Things started off ok, checked license then wanted to look at the rifle so I open the case thats when it took a turn for the worst. Oh you havnt removed the bolt, and the magazine is still on, I explain its an sks semiauto, the bolt is a little hard to remove, and the magazine is fixed, it dont come off. Whats the orange thing? its a chamber flag they show its not loaded. So you carry it loaded sometimes do you? Only when Im hunting not otherwise.
At this point I got a bad feeling
about where this seemed to be going.
Well its a mssa and you dont have an endorsement for that, I try explaining that it is a cat but get told to shut up and step away from the car. He takes the rifle over to a patrol car and talks to the guy inside, there is some arm waving and finger pointing in my direction then the driver gets out. He opens the case, lifts the rifle out drops the mag open looks at it, closes it back, up shoulders the thing then puts it back in the case and wanders over alone. Hands me it back apologises about the other guys behaviour (not always the highest calibre personell on daytime booze bus checkpoints) and talks guns for a bit wanted to know what i thought of the sparc and how the days shooting had been. Left feeling a lot better but still think of what could have happened and how long it would have taken to sort it out.

---

Why would you take the bolt out? What a cock. Bet he felt butt hurt when his little power trip fell over.

just another case of some young , not too long out of Police Training cunstable, who hasnt had time for the brainwashing to wear off and common sense thinking to reemerge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beavis

Why would you take the bolt out? What a cock. Bet he felt butt hurt when his little power trip fell over.

---

I too didn't think the law required you to have the bolt and magazine removed from the rifle.
Just that the magazine cannot be load, regardless of whether it is in the rifle or not.

Section 32.1.A of the arms act has some reference to restricted weapons (pistols and MSSAs) being inoperable by removal of vital part.
I have trigger locks or cables through the receiver on my MSSAs.
AR15 BCGs/bolts/firing pins are dime a dozen these days, so removing it to dissuade theft is f**king pointless, more so to reduce likely hood of immediate non permitted use.

I thought that section only applied to storage? I've never seen anything in the act about transportation. Road laws cover not having a loaded mag I'm a vehicle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beavis

I thought that section only applied to storage? I've never seen anything in the act about transportation. Road laws cover not having a loaded mag I'm a vehicle.

---

+1

But a little extra security never goes amiss.

32.1.A does, but 32.1.B seems vague enough to mean more than just in storage, ie 'possession'.
Either way, carriage of an A-Cat SKS isn't guided by section 32.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dogmatix

Section 32.1.A of the arms act has some reference to restricted weapons (pistols and MSSAs) being inoperable by removal of vital part.
I have trigger locks or cables through the receiver on my MSSAs.
AR15 BCGs/bolts/firing pins are dime a dozen these days, so removing it to dissuade theft is f**king pointless, more so to reduce likely hood of immediate non permitted use.

---

Pistols and MSSAs aren't Restricted Weapons.

restricted weapon means any weapon, whether a firearm or not, declared by the Governor-General, by Order in Council made under section 4, to be a restricted weapon
Source: Arms Act 1983

Restricted Weapons are specified in the Arms (Restricted Weapons and Specially Dangerous Airguns) Order 1984
Weapons declared restricted weapons
1 Anti-tank projectors, and ammunition therefor.

2 Grenade dischargers, grenade launchers, and grenades containing explosives.

3 Incendiary grenades; including the type commonly known as a Molotov cocktail and consisting of—

(a)a container or containers, the only or principal contents of which is an inflammable liquid or mixture; and
(b)a means of ignition of the inflammable substance or mixture, whether that means is a wick, an explosive or other device, a fuse, or a chemical.

4 Machine carbines or guns, submachine carbines or guns, and machine pistols of any kind, including those operated by gas or compressed air.

4A Firearms and airguns that are capable of full automatic fire, excluding airguns that are designed for use in airsoft or paintball sports and are in the same configuration as when they were manufactured.

5 Mines of an explosive nature, of any kind whatsoever.

6 Mortars of military kinds, and ammunition therefor.

7 Rocket launchers and ammunition therefor.

8 Every firearm, weapon, and device designed for the purpose of discharging any lachrymatory, deleterious, or toxic gas, smoke, or other stupefying or overpowering thing capable of rendering any person either wholly or partially incapable of resistance (other than any device designed and intended solely for any medical, surgical, veterinary, scientific, agricultural, industrial, or other similar lawful purpose).

9 Any gas, substance, material, or thing specially intended or adapted for use in conjunction with any firearm, weapon, or device specified in clause 8.

P G Millen,
Clerk of the Executive Council.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beavis

I thought that section only applied to storage? I've never seen anything in the act about transportation. Road laws cover not having a loaded mag I'm a vehicle.

---

I always make sure the firearms are not visible from outside. I wont lie if asked, but wont mention it either if they dont ask. Discretion is a helpful tool. (It stops the tools asking....)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koshogi

Pistols and MSSAs aren't Restricted Weapons.

restricted weapon means any weapon, whether a firearm or not, declared by the Governor-General, by Order in Council made under section 4, to be a restricted weapon
Source: Arms Act 1983

Restricted Weapons are specified in the Arms (Restricted Weapons and Specially Dangerous Airguns) Order 1984
Weapons declared restricted weapons
1 Anti-tank projectors, and ammunition therefor.

2 Grenade dischargers, grenade launchers, and grenades containing explosives.

3 Incendiary grenades; including the type commonly known as a Molotov cocktail and consisting of—

(a)a container or containers, the only or principal contents of which is an inflammable liquid or mixture; and
(b)a means of ignition of the inflammable substance or mixture, whether that means is a wick, an explosive or other device, a fuse, or a chemical.

4 Machine carbines or guns, submachine carbines or guns, and machine pistols of any kind, including those operated by gas or compressed air.

4A Firearms and airguns that are capable of full automatic fire, excluding airguns that are designed for use in airsoft or paintball sports and are in the same configuration as when they were manufactured.

5 Mines of an explosive nature, of any kind whatsoever.

6 Mortars of military kinds, and ammunition therefor.

7 Rocket launchers and ammunition therefor.

8 Every firearm, weapon, and device designed for the purpose of discharging any lachrymatory, deleterious, or toxic gas, smoke, or other stupefying or overpowering thing capable of rendering any person either wholly or partially incapable of resistance (other than any device designed and intended solely for any medical, surgical, veterinary, scientific, agricultural, industrial, or other similar lawful purpose).

9 Any gas, substance, material, or thing specially intended or adapted for use in conjunction with any firearm, weapon, or device specified in clause 8.

P G Millen,
Clerk of the Executive Council.

---

Yeah, that would make sense, as I couldn't for the life of me figure out why a MSSA would be kept inoperable.
Its the wording of 32 which refers to the endorsements in 30 (including MSSAs) which put me off track.

Always wonder about the loaded mag, allowed ammo rolling round the floor getting jammed in door hinges but not safely in a mag... Ok its easier to load up and fire but still

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savage1

Here's a piece of advice, if you have a reasonable excuse/reason then tell the cop. No point in making them guess/assume what your reason might be and it will make it a lot easier on yourself. They're not the enemy if you've done nothing wrong.

---

I would like to agree with you Savage1 but unfortunately sometimes Cops do act like the enemy (especially PHQ Wellington note other threads). This is a good example, for crying out loud the guy had a license.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savage1

Isn't there an online form? Pretty sure that's how I did it last time.

---

You mean a form you print off and send in or take in? I think so. Haven't heard of an online one that you can send in via a webform, not saying there isn't one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jexla

You mean a form you print off and send in or take in? I think so. Haven't heard of an online one that you can send in via a webform, not saying there isn't one.

---

It used to be directly on the Police NZ Website, some of their links still take you to the now broken link. The change of address for firearms licence link on the home page will take you to the new online system which is integrated into the Connect Me system.