Do you really need a long barrel? Chop it or not?

A few of us got together the other day when doing a reloading day in the man cave and started talking about barrel length.
This it intended for normal hunting not really for longer range beyond +300m.
With the new powders, dail up scopes and reticles out now, do you need a long or standard length barrels?
I think in most cases everyone wants accuracy over velocity, and for the reloader chopping the barrel a few inches velocity can be gained back a bit in using a different power or load. Even for the new hunters how many are going to start shooting 300m-400m or more, for the newbee hunter 200m is a long way to zero a rifle.

So I my situation and the way I hunt now is my average shooting distance is 20m-60m so I use a 12" barrel but can still shoot out to 300m if need be with the help of a rangefinder and Ballistics app using a 300 Blackout.

And on my long range rig average shots are around 200m-400m and reach out to 800m on deer if the conditions allow with a 21" barrel 270win. When funds allow will rebarrel it to a 16" but different caliber and still do the same velocity and energy. From what I know now if I just got into hunting I would choose a 308 or 7mm-08 suppressed 15"-16" barrel.

Got a few mates average hunters shoot between 2 and 5 deer a year with standard factory 308win and 7mm-08 22" and 24" barrels with suppressors adding extra length and weight. There average shooting distance is 60m-160m with a long shot being 200m-300m. I said to them right at the start when they first got the guns chop em down you don't need a long barrel to shoot 300m the deer won't notice the difference in velocity. Now they say there 22", 24" and even 20" barrels are too long and clumbersome to carry in thicker bush, also they say it harder to shoot off handand and wished they chopped them down to 16" or 18". And the boy said if they want to shoot farther they would get a magnum with a standard barrel.

It's The guys at the Shops are saying to them that you need a long barrel for max bullet speed to kill deer, longer is better because they use 14" AR15s with 30 shoot magazines at night with thermal scopes? Yeah right?

I can understand if shoot on the top and longer ranges beyond 300m you need the extra barrel length and velocity but for the average hunter do you need it? What say you?

I've just got my first short barrel gun 12.5" so far I havnt had to shoot over 300m in the places I've been and 40-60m is usually what distance is the norm havnt tried this one one yet but at those distances I'd say it won't be much different to my longer barrelled ones

Same thing with scopes people generally have to much magnification on them then what is needed

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2-10 'scope.

16"-20" barrel chambered in one of the 308 based cases.

Muffler.

Carbon stock...equals...

Modern marvel.


I've got 5 hunting rifles for all seasons and reasons and the longest barrel is 21" .223, 243, 6.5X55, 7-08, 300SAUM.

Simple answer, get two rifles one short for the tight bush and another for the open tops :thumbsup:

I bush hunt mostly but also stalk clearings and do the tops so I have a dedicated bush rifle( open sighted 20" 30-30), a General purpose 308(24" about to be 20" suppressed) and lastly a tops rifle(well once I've re barrelled it).

If i started out again I'd go 18/20" 308 generic stainless rifle with a 2-10 scope and suppressed.
Can't recall the last time I took my scopes off the lowest magnification. So yes I definitely believe people go for too big a scope but that changes with experience(even if ya don't get a deer every time you can still learn from it).

I hunt bush and have just chopped my 308 to 14inch the can takes it just over 18inch so is perfect for me

Chopped my 10/22 to 12 inches and hasn't actually changed much. Guess it depends on the quality of the rifle you start wih though

my 375 has 16 inch barrel, with suppressor fitted makes it 20. Its much handier than my SAUM which is 30 inches with suppressor fitted (Bare barrel is 26)

ballestics are similar to a short barrel 308 with a bit more poke at the business end :D

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Originally Posted by Tahr

2-10 'scope.

16"-20" barrel chambered in one of the 308 based cases.

Muffler.

Carbon stock...equals...

Modern marvel.


I've got 5 hunting rifles for all seasons and reasons and the longest barrel is 21" .223, 243, 6.5X55, 7-08, 300SAUM.

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Still got your 270 WSM A7 Thar?

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Originally Posted by mikee

my 375 has 16 inch barrel, with suppressor fitted makes it 20. Its much handier than my SAUM which is 30 inches with suppressor fitted (Bare barrel is 26)

ballestics are similar to a short barrel 308 with a bit more poke at the business end :D

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Your last comment is a little understated I think :XD:

I tend to hunt smaller groups and varmints from a vehicle. For that the short barrel is brilliant. If I'm on the hills walking then a long barrel is better for the walking stick.

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Originally Posted by Sidney

Still got your 270 WSM A7 Thar?

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Its at the Dr's now getting a 20" 300SAUM barrel put onto it.
I will still have the .270wsm barrel if I ever want to convert back, but doubt it.

Very valid topic. Short barrel, get to know your ballistics out to 300 and enjoy the bush stalking with a nice quick pointing short arse gun.

With overbarrel suppressor I could only take my 308 back to about 19" without cutting the front of the stock off. Thats still noticeably handier than the same suppressor on factory 22" though.

223 at 18" with DPT can is pretty similar total length to original and handles nicely.

Only real shorties I've used are 22s, very convenient for shooting from vehicles on farms.

Brand new Rem700 in 308, 24in barrel
2 days later was in at DPT getting cut to 16in and a can put on.

Great gun :D

With the exception of two shot with a 303 at over 100y probably my first 50 deer could have been shot with a pistol.
I grew up in the no deer on tops or river flats era, if you wanted to find a deer you had to go bush..and do plenty of miles.

These days mostly I hunt open country after being a bit slow to discover they were back out there :D

I went from a stuffed 303 to a stuffed 308 because the 308 had a scope and was cool :D it was shortened 4" already with a hacksaw very crooked as the end of the barrel was bulged from a blockage, cost me $80....shot 3-5 inch groups at 100 paced yards.claimed many deer pigs and countless goats.
Upgrading to a Sako 308 saw a whole new world open around me! suddenly I could shoot things at incredible distances and things just fell over dead! 150y 200y 300y it was amazing!:D

I got cocky and had a couple of cock ups after that due to range estimation fails and a range finder was next on the list.

If you are starting out hunting I would suggest keep factory length unless you are never going to hunt open country, and if you are before you even leave the shop you should have a range finder and a understanding of how your caliber and ammo perform.

Yeah done that stuffing up the range of deer a few times before rangefinders. Have taken guys out hunting and ask what range is that deer 350 meters? no it's only 200m 5" of drop not 28" .
It's easy to over estimate or underestimate.

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Originally Posted by 223nut

Chopped my 10/22 to 12 inches and hasn't actually changed much. Guess it depends on the quality of the rifle you start wih though

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The biggest factor is the caliber. A 22 doesn't have much powder to burn so you could go with a 6" barrel and be OK. Even magnum calibers only lose velocity with shorter barrels so unless that matters to you chop away.

My wife says barrel length is very important, I thought a 10 inch barrel was short ..........................she seems happy:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

The biggest factor is the caliber. A 22 doesn't have much powder to burn so you could go with a 6" barrel and be OK. Even magnum calibers only lose velocity with shorter barrels so unless that matters to you chop away.

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Depending on the caliber and powder.

My main hunting rifle shows almost 200fps gain with the powder it likes in a 25inch barrel, I doubt the gain would even be noticeable in say a 16''

What does velocity matter? well lots and nothing. If a projectile is impacting in the velocity range(at the ranges and muzzle velocities shot at) it works well in then great everything works well but just having a projectile that will work at the expected distances and hence impact velocities while a good start is not all there is to think about.

Don't get me wrong I am all for a compact rifle in the bush but what a lot miss when doing the calcs on velocity and energy at range from their "bush pig" is windage.

Trying to send a relatively slow 30cal bullet with a piss poor bc over longish distances is like throwing an inflated balloon with a pebble in it at your sister on the other end of the section with a 90 mph cross wind .

You may have the theoretical bc and impact velocity for the projectile to work and the theoretical ft pounds (if you believe in that:wtfsmilie:) at range with a short bush pig but windage is your enemy and by hell does a big slow blunt bullet drift.

Fine if you are well practised/know your drifts/and can accurately estimate wind speeds/direction and correction.
Plenty of guys on here can and do do the above but I cannot, i simply do not shoot enough and neither do most hunters, I can use an app and dial my drop accurately,shoot enough to shoot accurately enough for medium ranges but start lobbing balloons in the wind and its all over.

And that is where a few hundreds of feet per second make all the difference....especially for non expert shooters when the range gets out there and it doesn't even have to be very far.

I have several rifles and I was quite slow jumping on the suppressor bandwagon.

I first started running a suppressor on my 7Saum with the hot amax load for long shots as I was finding the recoil a bit stiff.

But this makes it quite long and I don't like caring it at that length, so keep the can in the pack until I reach a lookout or I'm ready for a long shot. A bit of a pain in the arse.

I've recently built a 17" barreled 284 win, with a magnum Dpt suppressor back to the forend of the stock. It still pushes the 162 Amax at 2800 fps. (Not that far behind the 3,000 the 22" 7Saum does)

The 17" 284win still holds 1,000 ft lbs to 900 yards. I generally don't shoot deer beyond 600 yards anyway and i'd be more than happy to shoot a deer at that range with this. Really the only rifle I would need to do it all from bush to tops, 6-600 yards.

Also got a 15" suppressed 708 model 7, it's a little honey too.

I found that one out a couple of weeks back trying to shoot hares at about a mere 150m with the 223 in severe gale force winds at 90 degrees to the flight path. Really even struggled to hold the rifle firmly enough with gusts grabbing at the suppressor. Thought I was Beckham the way the wind was bending the shot.

I don't really agree in principle. Accuracy is overrated when it comes to hunting deer in my opinion. I could have probably shot the same amount of deer I have done already with a rifle that wouldnt shoot better than a three inch group at 100 metres. But bullet performance is important to me. Probably why I handload - if a 180 grain bullet in a .30/06 should be going 2700 - 2800 fps than by golly I will have 2800 fps. Its what the bullet does when it gets there that is important to me.

I wouldnt keep a .30/06 than only gets 2500 fps with a 180 grain bullet, which means I would never buy a .30/06 with a 20 inch barrel or less.

I have a 270 that gets an honest 3100 fps with 130 grain bullets with a 24 inch barrel and I wouldnt touch it. That's what .270s are supposed to do. I have owned 17 and 18 inch barreled .270's and I will not again. Yes they would kill animals. I can kill animals with a truck. The point is that I am buying .270 performance.
A .308 I can see shortening to 20 inches depending on the rifle, but if it was a .30/06 I wouldn't. An '06 is supposed to perform to a certain level, that is the whole point of the bigger cartridge.
I wouldnt cut a .25/06 under 24 inches, or a 7mm RM either.

I just think that a standard 22 inch barrel is no big deal to carry, and I couldn't give up the velocity just to have a rifle thats easier to wave around. I have heard all the arguments about how the velocity loss is less than you think, and so on and so forth, and you only lose this much per inch and excetera, but I have chronographed a lot of rifles and loads.

I have enough to carry around already without a suppressor as well.

Here's an interesting article for you to consider when thinking of shortening barrel lenghts.

Daniel Zimmerman - the truth about barrel length muzzle velocity and accuracy

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

Here's an interesting article for you to consider when thinking of shortening barrel lenghts.

Daniel Zimmerman - the truth about barrel length muzzle velocity and accuracy

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Pretty much what everyone has been saying. Just a trade off of the things you want.

Theres no reason to cut a 308 cartidge family (or smaller) under 20" or a long action catridge under 22/23" if you are not going to suppress.

You will just deafen yourself faster...

In fact the only reason to cut factory length barrels is to suppress. Why else would you?

I've been back and forth thinking about getting my 7mm08 cut down.
If it's on my back its always that last inch that gets caught up in the steplejack.
I also thought it might make it easier for my 14yr son to shoulder.

It seems to me that most people, maybe everyone that cut their barrels do so because they fitting a can on the end of it. If you dont cut it its going to be extra long and a little more weight with the can so it makes sence. Normal hunting distances doesnt matter at all if you cut your barrel short or not, so each to their own.
At the same time its extra cost for the cut and re fit for a suppressor and i personally dont mine at all the standard barrel length and use my rifles how they come. My 308 is 24 inch, its no prob at all in the bush for hunting to carry and my 243 is 22 and thats fine also. I dont have them suppressed, and thats fine with me. Im getting the max performance out of both cals rather than if i cut either and when it comes to hearing this is how i see it.
Sighting in and mucking around you can and do wear hearing protection so no need for a can. If you long range hunting you have plenty of time to throw in some ear plugs etc and still no need for a can and the extra cost that comes with it.
Short range hunting, if goat shooting and thinking firing mutli shots again you have time to use ear protection and no need for a can.
Most other times one shot will drop that deer and i can live with that without a can and your hearing isnt going to go overnight, Using a dog a can makes sense, and prob should use one but otherwise its just a trade off with the extra cost of a suppressor v not using one. Firing shots all day week in and out without using ear protection or a can will stuff or hearing. if you shooting a couple or 4 deer a month without ear protection you hearing prob will survive ok.
Plus i dont agree you get more animals using a can. Firstly, i only want one animal so after i shoot one thats it. Secondly, ive shot many deer then walked around the corner and seen others and they would have certainly heard the shot hand havnt ran. Plus ive missed animals and the deer still have no idea where the shot came from and run at me for me to still knock it over. Certainly havnt lost deer because of no can and my hearing is still fine after years shooting rifles but do use protection when i can otherwise its a shot here and there and thats fine with me

deer243 pretty much sums it up for me too, I leave my Hi power rifles as they come, I don't need the added expense of a suppressor. I do use a suppressor on my 22 which comes from years of night shooting for the Pest Board. They had there place when shooting close to deer farms or flighty animals like horses. Back in those days we would shoot anything between 200- 400 rounds a night so it must have helped with the hearing a bit.

I'd echo the thoughts above about performance by CarlsenH. With a few exceptions, most bullets are designed to open up properly at a velocity bandwidth that was worked out from the projectile exiting a 24 inch barrel at the cartridge's near maximum speed.

The other thing people often don't consider is point-ability. Short rifles often come up fast but are unsteady to hold still. Not enough weight out the front. Proper fit & balance are important factors in rifles, they are often overlooked.