Ok
Take out 878$ for a leupy VX3i
Spend the rest on your rifle.
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Ok
Take out 878$ for a leupy VX3i
Spend the rest on your rifle.
Thats probably the opposite really IMO. Cheaper rifles will often group just as well but not be as nicely finished and might not feel as good to use - there are always exceptions too though so you can't rely on a price tag to tell you too much apart from whether or not you can afford it.
Sometimes its just a difference between manufacture quality (everything is within design tolerances and does its job) and perceived quality (everything feels more nicely made and finished whether it actually performs better or not). How much money that extra perceived quality is worth is down to personal taste - some people are happy with a rough clunky rifle that gets the job done on a budget, some prefer to spend many thousands on a beatifully crafted custom rifle that makes them smile just to look at it, most of us are somewhere in between.
If that s your budget don't go with the cheapest scope mounts either. And buy a descent cleaning rod ( a $100 ish in one piece carbon fibre) and some good copper solvent and patches.
OK so we've talked about how cheap can you go and there are a lot more people on tight budgets than big ones so that's a good start. However it is a feature of NZ in 2018 that there are a number of people like the original poster who are fortunate enough to be able to lay out $2000 to $3000 on their first rifle. Most hunters pretty soon spend this much anyway by buying a second and then a third rifle and upgrading from budget to mid range components. There are also a smaller number who could start at $5K or even $10K. There are some sports you can't even get started in for those amounts like fishing boats and car racing, so lets include some advice for well off beginners.
Can you hit the ground running by applying a lot of money ?
For a start, it is quite true that at this time cheap to mid range rifle like the Tikka T3 can shoot every bit as accurately as the most expensive. The difference is in ease of use. For instance, the Sako 85 costs 2.5x the tikka and has identical accuracy, barrel and trigger (it is advertised for 5 shot MOA rather than 3 but In reality the Tikka is good). The differences are that the action comes in 6 sizes while the Tikka only one. A .223 is the same size as a 300WinMag. The sako has a steel magazine and trigger guard and the mag holds 5 not 3. The bolt has 3 lugs so a lower bolt lift, quicker to reload and the bolt handle clears the scope better. The mount rails are tapered and although its annoying to be locked to the tapered dovetail system it does work well for the ordinary not technical hunter mounting their own scope. All these things make it more trouble free and nicer to use which can lead to better results. A synthetic stock, stainless rifle will not be damaged by hard use, scratched drops and dings. So, if you can afford to spend $5000, then I'd recommend a Sako 85 for your first rifle.
Then, to scopes. There's no doubt my mate's VX-3 was better than my VX-1 in low light and if you do have $1000 to spend rather than $400 that's good value. Stepping up again to the $3000 range, you have Nightforce, Kahles and Schmidt & Bender are rugged, reliable and nice to look through (that is your order of priority). Brightness, shapness and field of vie may add little to accuracy on paper but make it that much easier to shoot animals well. A beginner will do better with them. I'm talking about straightforward hunting models, not the larger, long range models with whistles and thistly reticles. Some of these like the Swarovski Z6 and Zeiss eurpoean models are marvels of optical engineering (like the Blaser Rifle) but the extra money has gone into features needed by specialist tactical and target shooters not by the hunter. So, a good scope will also make it much easier for the new shooter to hit the ground running because it will be easy to see the target, sights will adjust where you expect and stay where you put them. If you can afford to buy that then do it - don't struggle with an entry level piece of sporting goods out of a feeling of solidarity and rluctnce to disclose your disposable income. Remember to say "I only have one rifle ..." and you will be right.
Best quality, averagely accurate but highly reliable and easy to use gear can make it easier to learn good shooting skills and allow you to concentrate on learning bushcraft and hunting skills, have early success, without needing to chase wounded animals around on your first trips.
Howas are a little on the heavy side compared to Tikka, but both are accurate and reliable options. Both will normally shoot much better than the person buying them (This means your groups will usually be because of you not the rifle) With your budget I would suggest spending about $1000 on the rifle, and a similar amount on the scope and decent mounts etc. This leaves $500 for ammo. A lot of people spend their whole budget on the rifle and scope, then try to economise withte ammo because their budget ran out.
With the ammo, get enough that you can spend a decent amount of time at the range getting comfortable with the rifle, and learning how to shoot it accurately. Get to know it. A couple hundred rounds like this taking your time will make a huge difference to your shooting. And with the ammo, try a number of brands and type of ammo. See what works best for you in the rifle. I normally suggest a pack of 3 or four brands to start with and an extra pack of one that you would prefer to use. Use the first packet of your preferred one to sight in. Then use half a packet each of the others at targets. Dont worry if the point of impact is out a bit, at this stage you wan to know what groups the best. Then with the rest of the half packets do the same thing but use the brands in the opposite order. You wil find that your own shooting will improve (well hopefully it will) so when you get to the end of the ammo, you should have a pretty good idea on which it likes. If there is no preference between brands, or there are similar performance between a few of them, buy a heap of the easiest of those to get.
As for the calibre debate- your original options of 308 and 7mm08 will both suit most game you will find in NZ. My personal preference would be the 308, but only because I find it easier to get a wider choice of 308 ammo. Any calibre that is readily available across the shelf as ammunition from 6mm right up to 8mm will do you fine. (apart from the likes of 7.62x39 and other "short" rounds). If you think 243, 6.5x55, 7mm08, .25/06, 270. 308, 30/06, among others....you should be fine
I agree with Timmattalon re budget and general advice, and would add that I have a range at my place so see a few rifles come through for sighting and checking. From what I have seen and used I would go with 7mm08 and 140grn ammo. ( Personally I agree with Jesus choice and use a 270 myself to provide food for the deciples) As a beginner you are not going to have the confidence for long shots so a mid power caliber is what is needed. Out of those mid power choices the 7mm caliber is ideal for all NZ game. The 280 rem is the best of those (Parent 3006) and none of the other non-magnum calibres mentioned can touch it. But it has more power and recoil than you need so stepping it back the 7mm08 is perfect. It has superior ballistics to it's parent the 308win, will kill well without turning the side of an animal black like a 308 and is mild to shoot.
As to rifle, a really good trigger makes the biggest difference to accurate shooting. Rifle fit can be altered by taping some closed cell foam to the comb so that if you shoulder the rifle with your eyes closed, when you then open them you find yourself looking perfectly through the scope. If you buy a new rifle just remember to read up on how to 'shoot in' the barrel.
After studying all this advice and visiting a couple more stores. I arrived at the outdoorsman. The guy asked me 3 questions calibre,stock,barrel 7mm08, synthetic, stainless. answered them and he pulled about 9 rifles down we then pulled each one up 3 times to the shooting position then said yes or no got down to 4 rifles and did the same thing.
The Browning was ruled out for the offset shaped grip
The howa for the weight and stock thickness
Now we are down to 2 the Remington and the tikka.
Eyes closed to shooting position and open eye once there. Did this a half dozen times on each my eye was slightly left of the centre each time but worse on the Remington. The Remington was also slightly shorter.
So we arrived at the Tikka.
After looking through a few scopes at $750-$950 rang the luepold V3 just had a very clear colour sharpness to it.
That there is the process of how I chose my 1st rifle. Thanks for everyone's opinion knowledge and advice
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now you will get all the ribbing.....tikka 7-08......are you sure your not an aucklander.....did it come with a latte.....etc etc.......take it on the chin sounds like you got the best fit for you in a calibre that will do exactly what you need ........now to get out there and test drive it
A sticky is one of the threads in each section permanently pinned to the top, ie what someone will see first. Usually reserved for crucial info, a well answered common question etc (example 4.1 on this definition https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sticky)
I can guarantee I am not an Aucklander couldn't think of anything worse. But it did come with a mocha. Yep took it home and put it into the shooting position a few more times and it just sits nicely each time.
Unfortunately won't be going for therapy today as I'm on call but next weekend will be another story the 4packs of free ammo I got aswell will be cleaned up
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Well done jrm234 you have made a great choice on your first rifle. And good to know some shops have staff with the knowledge to steer new shooters in the right direction.
Now just get out and use it as much as you can to get used to it.
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For the record it was the Outdoorsman Headquarters in Rotorua. TOP NOTCH service and advice [emoji1474]
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You will do fine with that combo. The Tika's have a hard stock that doesn't absorb recoil in the way that a good aftermarket stock will ( like a Kevlar filled job for example ) so may-be you will need to buy a really good recoil pad to make up for this if the recoil is a sharp whack esp when shooting prone.
Also tika barrels do need the proper shoot, clean, shoot, clean procedure to break them in. Make sure to do this dull job properly with bore paste and patience, the result will be a good shooter.
I disagree re the need to do the whole break in thing, especially using an abrasive bore paste. No harm in doing a traditional break in if you want but would caution against the use of abrasive pastes.
I picked up a Tikka superlite and put a burris predator quest scope on it the other week for a hunting rig. Cleaned the barrel prior to shooting the first rounds through it and proceeded to shoot 4 x groups that averaged 0.37" across all groups with less than 25 rounds down the barrel total (including shooting the groups). Was shooting federal fusion ammo that had deformed led tips. Only cleaned the barrel after I was done shooting and there was very minimal buildup of anything.
Tikka makes very smooth barrels.
I humble myself and confess that it is now four years since I shot in two new Tikkas at my range and both needed ten shots with a good clean between the first six shots then 1 in 2.
If the barrels are better now that is great. One was a 300 WSM and one a 270.
Regardless of our individual opinions , our friend Jrm 234 would probably benefit from someone explaining the why and how of shooting in his barrel if he hasn't checked it out already.
Yeah, the old “shoot in” process nugget, some swear by it, most swear at it!
Just depends who you talk to!
I believe most believe now that it is something that has been cooked up by barrel and ammo manufacturers to sell more!
Never done it to any of mine as I believe it’s a myth and never had an issue with accuracy or fouling, but it certainly shouldn’t hurt the rife if you do do it, only your bank balance.
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Spot on. It isint going to hurt anything but your wallet.
I have personally never run in a barrel.
Have had a fair few new rifles and custom barrels. Had a couple bad ones but no amount of lapping or running in would have helped them.
Every good one I have had has shot straight away and only improved slightly with load development.
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Howa in 6.5 Creedmore brother to the 260 rem both will do anything in nz with mild recoil
Alot depends on how the barrel has been made and the care with how the chamber was cut or barrel and chamber forged in one process. "Roughly" cut chambers can have microscopic radial grooves left in the neck and throat areas that can cause copper being left in the throat. Quality control has got much better in the last twenty years or so and less 'bad' barrels slip through.
Realistically, how much difference do you think it will make cleaning between shots in smoothing a rifle bore? If barrels were so soft that it made any difference they’d be buggered after a couple of packets...
Biggest myth out there at the moment - all about selling more gear. You’re more likely to do damage with crappy cleaning gear than good. I’ve lost count if the number of newbies I’ve seen bashing away with cheap three piece rods and likely they’d do more for the barrel if they just left the poor bloody thing alone! :omg:
Ok, so the principle of breaking in is that the first several rounds down the barrel polish the surface of the bore and make it smooth so it fouls more evenly for the rest of its iife.
The benefits are supposed to be accuracy and reduced fouling so the rifle can fire more shots between cleaning and the accurate life of the barrel is longer overall.
The problem is that barrels vary in their potential accuracy so doing a controlled trial to demonstrate benefit or none, compared to starting straight into shooting long uncleaned strings is extraordinarily difficult and the amount of benefit is said to vary with calibre, bullet type, barrel type .... So it is unlikely anyone will produce experimental evidence to prove the value of breaking in, even if it were highly beneficial. We therefore rely on recognised principles of engineering and advice from experts such as barrel manufacturers. You can google and find these and the preponderance of highly successful competitive shooters do breaking in.
There are two main sorts of fouling: powder/carbon fouling and copper fouling. The theory is that if these build up on the new barrel surface, some patches get polished nicely while others accumulate successive layers of carbon and copper which peel off at random leaving a chaotic surface which changes with each shot. Carbon is relatively easy to clean off with a powder solvent but you really need a bronze brush to get it all off. Copper needs special solvents and can be very time consuming and the solvents are expensive. Using a good one piece cleaning rod and a bore guide will enable you to clean without damaging your rifle.
A common strategy is to fire 5 to 10 shots cleaning in between each one, then gradually increase the number of shots till you are shooting strings of 5. Once the bore is considered to be broken in, most people will clean it for carbon after each day's shooting and perhaps every 50 to hundred rounds for copper (this varies a lot between shooters !). During the break in brocess you can be sighting in your rifle and slowly checking grouping capability and trajectory and even go out for a hunt or two, so its not wasted ammo, nor barrel life.
Barrels typically last 2000 to 5000 rounds so if you do a lot of shooting and think you will wear your barrel out and replace it one day (as many good shooters do) then you could consider the break in process an additional profit for the manufacturers although generally the ammunition and cleaning gear, not to mention your time and the main costs.
After reading about the break-in process on here I did a little research. 1 read the manual again thinking id missed something. 2 rang the outdoorsman and asked them. Scoured the web forums magazine articles here and there.
I came to the conclusion that the break in process is nessecary and not nessecary.
What ill do this coming Sunday sight the scope 4 rounds. (Hopefully get it pretty close with 4 rounds) Quick clean Just to get anything out not nessecarily copper fouling.
3 rounds check grouping
3 rounds check grouping
Quick clean
3 rounds check grouping
3 rounds check grouping.
If I find the grouping gradually gets worse. Do a break in
If not carrying on check grouping at about 15-20 more rounds and clean as required
From there on out should smooth sailing
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To be honest, I dont know if the break in procedure makes a difference to rifles in truth or not. The ones I have done all seem to clean easier than ones where I didnt but I cant say for certain this is because they were run in. HOWEVER: If you look at the process of running in at the same time as sighting in and bear in mind this is also the first time you will use the rifle, think of it as a first date and getting to know it.
The usual procedure is fire a shot, wait a few minutes for it to cool, fire a shot and repeat for the first 10 rounds cleaning between each round. The for the second ten do 5x 2 shot groups with the same procedure between groups. Now sighting in fire a shot at the target, (close range first so around 25 or 50 metres. Adjust scope wait for a minute and repeat.
You will spend around a packet getting used to the rifle, so what harm will it do the clean it between each shot? It certainly wont hurt it. And if the first round of your break in procedure is also the first round of your sight in procedure then it does not cost you extra ammo either as you will be sighting it in and getting used to it anyway.
Does that make sense?
I agree, it won’t hurt, if you’re using a bore guide and a good quality one piece rod and appropriate jags etc. if, like most newbies, you’re got a $40 hoppes plastic box special, then good chance you’ll do more harm than good. More hunting barrels are buggered by rough cleaning than you’d think!
Goggle Gale Macmillan and barrel break in. The late Mr Macmillan knew a thing or two...
Back in 2008 I had a Trueflite Ultra Match 7mm barrel. It copper fouled terribly at first. Over 24 hours of cleaning and soaking to remove the copper after ONE shot (using boretech eliminator). You could see the copper on the lands at the end of the barrel. I did the shoot and clean each shot for 10 shots, took over a week to do this because the fouling was so bad. Then 3 shots clean etc. After a hundred or so rounds the copper was a lot easier to remove, I just went hunting and normal shooting after about 20 rounds to break in barrel.
For my latest rifle I didn't bother with a break in process and the copper fouling hasn't been anything unusual.
I just figure if I am going to the range to sight it in, I am going to use a whole packet anyway (Not much point going to the effort of traveling to the range, then only firing a few shots....) so I use that time to get familiar / comfortable shooting the rifle and run through the break in at the same time (and using the same shots) for sighting in.
And as @7x64 stated, quite correctly, get some decent cleaning gear and learn to use it properly.
As for the old debate that run in makes the barrel last longer, well if you have he budget to wear out a barrel (ammunition costs) then a replacement rifle is probably well with in budget and much more fun.....
It takes quite a few 5 shot groups to assess a rifle's precision capability.
What I have done is very carefully clean a new rifle, using a fine, mildly abrasive paste followed by clean patches - Before firing the first shot. I want to make sure there is nothing left from factory proofing/testing (if done) or any machining marks as has been mentioned by previous posters. This makes future cleaning easier right from the start.