Scope running out of elevation adjustment (Shooting too high)

Hi team,

I have a Weaver Grand Slam 3-12x42 with side focus.

At first I could not hit an A4 paper at 25m, then I realised it was shooting way too high.
After dialling the scope to the end of its elevation adjustment limit, I was still shooting about 25cm high at 25m.

Tried setting it up on a CZ452 22LR as well as a T3X in 223, with different rings, both with the same result.

Did a search on the forum and saw a few similar previous posts, which suggested swapping the front and rear rings around. I tried but it did not help.

The only trick I can think of now is to shim the rear rings of the scope using a piece of coke can to drop down the point of impact. However some posts suggested doing so may damage the scope.

So my questions are:

- Will shimming using a coke can piece be too risky?

- Should the shim be inserted between the scope tube and the ring? Or between the ring and the base?

- Does wrapping the shim in some clothes to provide a softer contact area sound like a good idea?

- Any other suggestions?

Thank you very much!

You could try the burris rings with offsets? It will only be masking the problem however. I've only heard of this happening with windage due to misaligned scope mount holes. Never elevation

Wont shimming the rear ring make it shoot higher ?
Clamp the rifle so it cant move and check that the elevation adjustment is working as a first step.

turn scope 90 degrees and see where its shooting....IF holes now appearing way out to one side scope tube is bent..... careful manipulation CAN fix this...so can warrenty claim.

Since you tested the scope on two other rifles with two other rings it sounds like a bent scope tube which you can test like MD said.

Another way to test at home is to roll the scope along a desk. Get down to eye level and roll the scope along the flat top and if it's bent it will show as a slight rise and fall. If your adjustment turrents are too long, then place two pieces of "two-by-four" on the flat surface so when you roll the scope the turrents pass through the space in the middle.

Hmmm, I'm having a similar problem (but not as pronounced). Didn't think of a bent tube. I'd hoped to solve it by switching from a 20MOA to 0MOA rail, but if it is bent, will that create other problems even if I can get it zeroed?

Also, can a bent tube come out of a decent factory, or is it more likely to be a result of abuse? Mine is a secondhand Meopta, but looks as new.

screw your adjustment to centre or near to it and do the 90 degree turn thing...it will soon tell you....if you have rifle held firmly in something..even a box with groove in each end works,loosen rings and try it...nothing to loose really,other than recheck of zero afterwards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synthetic

Hi team,

I have a Weaver Grand Slam 3-12x42 with side focus.

At first I could not hit an A4 paper at 25m, then I realised it was shooting way too high.
After dialling the scope to the end of its elevation adjustment limit, I was still shooting about 25cm high at 25m.

Tried setting it up on a CZ452 22LR as well as a T3X in 223, with different rings, both with the same result.

Did a search on the forum and saw a few similar previous posts, which suggested swapping the front and rear rings around. I tried but it did not help.

The only trick I can think of now is to shim the rear rings of the scope using a piece of coke can to drop down the point of impact. However some posts suggested doing so may damage the scope.

So my questions are:

- Will shimming using a coke can piece be too risky?

- Should the shim be inserted between the scope tube and the ring? Or between the ring and the base?

- Does wrapping the shim in some clothes to provide a softer contact area sound like a good idea?

- Any other suggestions?

Thank you very much!

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Greetings Synthetic,
First a coke can is just not going to cut it. Based on a 125 mm ring spacing you will need a 1.25 mm shim to get the shots in the middle with adjustments bottomed out and likely 1.5 to 2.0 mm in practice. First however you might want to check that the adjustments are working properly. Using a large target with the aiming point at the bottom and at 25 metres wind the scope up and down and left to right firing a shot at each setting to see if the scope is doing what you tell it to. You might want to run the adjustments through their range first to distribute any lubricant in the mechanism. I gather this helps with scopes that have been idle for some time. After checking this and the other items above if you still want to shim it the shim should go between the scope base and the receiver ring at the front ring. You should never shim inside the rings. You will likely need longer ring screws.
It might be easier to just replace the scope.
Regards Grandpamac.

Sound like you need either a 15-20 moa rail or burris rings with the plastic off set inserts otherwise shimming one ring could bend your scope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Walker

Sound like you need either a 15-20 moa rail or burris rings with the plastic off set inserts otherwise shimming one ring could bend your scope.

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The rail will make the scope shoot even higher.
Grandpamac.

There will be some problem with the Internals , check to see if you have the full range of adjustment . Is this a new scope to you , and how did it work previously ?. One option if you are not getting full adjustment would be to put the scope in a warm place , like the hot water cupboard for a few days and then in the sun /warmer place to hopefully loosen things up . As for a warranty/repair fix that will be interesting as Weaver are out of the scope business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tankd

There will be some problem with the Internals , check to see if you have the full range of adjustment . Is this a new scope to you , and how did it work previously ?. One option if you are not getting full adjustment would be to put the scope in a warm place , like the hot water cupboard for a few days and then in the sun /warmer place to hopefully loosen things up . As for a warranty/repair fix that will be interesting as Weaver are out of the scope business.

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Yes I bought it brand new.

Greetings Synthetic,
Weaver still seem to be in business and still list the 3 - 12 Grand Slam. There is a warranty for the original owner so could be worth talking to where ever you bought it or Weaver. Might be worth trying Tankd's hot water cupboard and a few runs through a full range of adjustment before giving up hope.
Grandpamac.

Something is wrong with the scope and/or ring setup if you tried it on three different rifles with the same results

The other option is user error. Potentially dialing the wrong way, no offense, it happens.

As a matter of course I always "run in" any new scope. This is best done before fitting the scope. Sitting in front of some shit tv program is ideal.
Running in involves winding the elevation and windage adjustments fully one way and fully the other a hand full of times. This distributes the grease nicely across the full travel of the threads.

At the same time I check the extent of the adjustments against the manufacturer's specs. In the case of the GS 3-12X42 it would appear to be 60 MOA.
This number I found by Google and assume it is correct. Weaver, bless their little souls, have removed all scope information from their website.

Unfortunately the tv winding backwards and forwards and confirming 60 MOA doesn't guarantee the erector is moving that amount, if a fault is present.

Finally I optically centre the scope by either winding 1/2 way between stops, or use the mirror method (Google). Usually, but not always they are optically centered from the factory.

From there I mount the scope.

In the OP's case, given his scope has +- 30 MOA to play with there is definitely an issue.
Usually the elevation issue crops up the other way around ie can't get enough adjustment for 100 yds, with 22rf.

One of those ones where eyeballing personally is easier but lots of good suggestions so far.

Not a fan of shimming rings. Yeah, I know, everyone has successfully cut up a coke can and shimmed.

If changing the slope of the rings is required, and I have never needed to reverse the slope and it is 99 times out of a 100 done to get more elevation, I use a tapered rail or Burris bushed rings.

Ok team, back to revive this thread again.

Today I tried a different scope, VX3 3.5-10x40, on the same Tikka 223, using the same rings.
To my surprises the scope ran out of elevation adjustment and was still shooting about 40cm too high at 25m, even worse than the Weaver Grand Slam!

This shows it is highly unlikely to be the scope's problem, but not sure what I'm doing wrong. It feels like it could be something very simple. I am certain the elevation and windage are the correct way round, ie. the scope isn't out by 90 degrees.

To make it even more confusing, I've set up my other rifles in the past the exact same way and they worked perfectly fine.

Any suggestions? Taking it to a gunsmith?

Sorry to keep dragging this on, but I'm really running out of ideas apart from feeling stupid.

do as has been suggested..swap rings from front to back and see what happens.

First I would check the height of the rings and measure from the bottom of the ring base to the recess for scope and make sure height is the same. Are they dovetail or weaver? Does the rifle have a rail on the receiver and who fitted it? Is the rail 0 moa or 20 and is it fitted the right way around? Might be worth reversing the rail maybe....
And not knowing your experience the down adjustment moves the impact point down , not the target.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

do as has been suggested..swap rings from front to back and see what happens.

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I've tried this with the Weaver but didn't make a difference.
Haven't tried it with the VX3 yet, but will give it crack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ftx325

First I would check the height of the rings and measure from the bottom of the ring base to the recess for scope and make sure height is the same. Are they dovetail or weaver? Does the rifle have a rail on the receiver and who fitted it? Is the rail 0 moa or 20 and is it fitted the right way around? Might be worth reversing the rail maybe....
And not knowing your experience the down adjustment moves the impact point down , not the target.

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The Tikka has Warne rings. No rail fitted.

Standard sort of calibre with no trick mounts or rails and a standard scope, shouldn’t be a problem. Is the Tikka a “lite” barrel, and is it also fluted and maybe, just maybe...bent?

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Originally Posted by ishoot10s

Standard sort of calibre with no trick mounts or rails and a standard scope, shouldn’t be a problem. Is the Tikka a “lite” barrel, and is it also fluted and maybe, just maybe...bent?

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It's a 1:8 twist rate 223 standard barrel. Not fluted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synthetic

It's a 1:8 twist rate 223 standard barrel. Not fluted.

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Okay, can you run a sheet of paper between the barrel and the fore end uninterrupted all the way from the front to the receiver? If not, you might have excessive fore end tension pushing the barrel up, or something got stuck in there when it was last put back in the stock.

Starting to sound like rifle rather than scope if you've tried two scopes with same issue. Has the scope got zero stop turrets.?

Greetings Synthetic,
Reading through your posts you seem to have ruled out everything other than the rifle itself. Changed to a proven scope (I assume the second scope has been used successfully on another rifle). Tick. Reversed the rings (I assume that this was moving the front ring to the back and vice versa). Tick. All that remains is the rifle. If the rifle is new to you and you have not successfully put a scope on it in the past then something is likely bent. Still it would be a good idea to get someone who mounts a lot of scopes to look over your installation before going to the next step.
Regards Grandpamac.

Greetings Again,
Just checked your first post again and spotted that you had mounted the scope on a different rifle with the same results. Hmm. It could also be that the rings are miss matched. Still would be good to get someone to look it over and go through what you have tried step by step. Trouble shooting is best done by changing only one thing at a time.
Regards Grandpamac.

yeah I went back and read that too......seems bizzare that a different scope would do same thing on rifle in question unless its mounts or rifle itself issue.....anybody in hamilton got a collimetre/boresighter that can go and stick it in muzzle and see what gives??????
MOST retail shops will have one...if you zero scope using one you SHOULD be on A4 bit of paper at 100 yards 99% of the time....using collimetre will also enable you to see in a jiffy if scope is tracking properly.

Are you using high rings?

At close ranges the angle difference from the scope to the bore is a lot more
Ie 1 inch movement (assume 1/4) is 4 at 100 but 16 at 25m

Try to bore sight at 50m - I normally do that with every rifle and get pretty close so can do a 100m straight after
Just about fell over the other week laughing - 1st shot was right next to the 1 inch dot ...

I’ve learn to do bore sight at home - saves the wasted day - off to range up north tomorrow but that’s a long drive for you even with the boarders gone

@Synthetic, listen closely, I am going to repeat this 3 times :D

BURRIS (signature zee) rings
BURRIS (signature zee) rings
BURRIS (signature zee) rings

If the rifle has a dovetail, you may need to look for a rail or mounts that convert dovetail to picatiny.

If you need any 25mm offset inserts let me know, I have a box of spares.

Another trick is to put the scope objective on a mirror, and see if you can dial the crosshairs so you only see one set through the eyepiece (I.e. now optically centred). If you can, it’s the rifle / mounts more than likely. If not, scope internals are unhappy.

Won’t completely rule out a bent tube, but quick way to make sure the internals as ok. Can also use this as a rough box test without firing a shot...I.e 20,clicks each direction and see if it finishes in the middle again.

Hi team,

Thank you everyone for your advice so far.

Tikka:
As recommended, I tried to run a piece of paper between the barrel and the stock, and got completely stuck at about 15cm from the forend, which is well away from the action. So this indicates there could be something stuck in there, as I know Tikka's should all be free floated. Will buy the right screw driver and take it apart tomorrow.

CZ:
CZ452's aren't free floated, so I'll try the tricks everyone suggested and see what happens.

Will show the sub moa groups that I will eventually achieve :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synthetic

Hi team,

Thank you everyone for your advice so far.

Tikka:
As recommended, I tried to run a piece of paper between the barrel and the stock, and got completely stuck at about 15cm from the forend, which is well away from the action. So this indicates there could be something stuck in there, as I know Tikka's should all be free floated. Will buy the right screw driver and take it apart tomorrow.

CZ:
CZ452's aren't free floated, so I'll try the tricks everyone suggested and see what happens.

Will show the sub moa groups that I will eventually achieve :cool:

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Synthetic stocked Tikka's should actually only be free floated to about 15cm in-front of the action - as you describe.
Look closely and you will see two purposeful protrusions molded into the stock that contact the barrel at that point.
Don't remove these or sand them down or whatever thinking it should be floating past there - it shouldn't.
If its a new rifle don't go messing with it.

You sure you are turning the turrets the right way?..happened to me before with a kahles scope..
You can also try to click the scope all the way to the bottom and count how many clicks it is, then wind back up until you have wound 1/2 of the distance in clicks;
zero from there and I bet you will be able to get the rifle pretty much zeroed.

Greetings All,
Have heard of Tikka T3 rifles shooting weird when the stock screws are over tightened. Only one of three rifles though.
Grandpamac.

Check that your recoil lug is where it should be,

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Originally Posted by diana2

...click the scope all the way to the bottom...

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Scopes 101 isn't it, but perhaps non-intuitive; look into the scope, wind the knob, watch the reticle dropping, and then, er... why is the rifle now shooting high? Slightly concerning too that the 25cm at 25 metres is close to the ± 30 moa that Zimmer looked up for the elevation range? If the scope was wound out fully the other way then it would be expected to be around 70cm high at 25 metres, and Synthetic would know that the elevation dial was working as it should.

place rifle in vice of some sort and mark where cross hairs are...then wind them a long way in direction and have another look.... or borrow a boresighter/collimetre MOST shops will have one as they use them when fitting scope to new rifles....go buy box of factory ammo or something to pay for their time and ask for help (yes I know it man dent the manly pride but will save your sanity in long run)it will take 2 minutes to see /rule out scope and mount issue....only leaving rifle/barrel to be issue...if indeed there is issue and not something simple....