Thread: Are we seeing a shift to smaller calibres and lighter bullets?

Old mate Steve from has a stuffed shoulder and can only use his wife’s rifles! That podcast are also mouth pieces for Form from RockSlide. You are probably getting a position that represents a vocal minority rather than the majority of us hunters unless you take the swing from .308w to 6.5 Creedmore as the yardstick.

I personally tend to shoot the heavy for calibre M or X pills in the same larger cases, but have set up a fast twist .223 and 500 x 77 TMKs for pantry fallow.


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Let s look a bit back.
1900 to the 1950’s , mostly open sight , calibres from war time or their cousins , from 6.5 MS , to 30-06 and 318 wr , with everything in between.
Including the 270 from 1925. I am not talking about bigger stuff , as that was more from black powder times , when speed that was not quite there was compensated by projectiles diameter to do the job properly.
Scope improvement helped to shoot further ( which does not mean that with the proper adjustable iron sight and a set of young eyes someone could not take game at further distances), but the only way to mitigate distance error estimations was by shooting a flatter trajectory round.
We start to see faster cartridges ( weatherby line, 300 Wm, 264 Wm and 7 rem mag ) from the 60’s to 70 ‘s . The rangefinders of those’d days were either ex World war big wide tubes, or on some particular scopes scale systems that adjusted with magnification to give you a range estimate.
I remember seeing some handy smaller mirror rangefinders in the cabelas catalogues till the mid 90’s when suddenly appeared the first laser range finders from tasco and then bushnell. At that time scopes like the leupold mk4 were kings for dialling up to the distance.
In those days , high bc bullets were only represented by sierra with its special match kings ( 90 gr .224, 155gr 6.5, 250 gr and then 240 gr .30 cal and 300 gr .338) and maybe a few hidden outfits making custom stuff.
End of the 90’s saw the arrivals of the short magnum craze but just prior to that the ultra mag range from remington, when mr green could produce the ammo to feed its guns and the guns to eat its ammos. But also with some flops like the 260 remington which should have been Saami specified with a. 1 in 8 twist instead of 1 in 9 and chambered in Varmint/ target rifles also instead of just a hand full of hunting rifles.
The 6.5x55 was already in advance on its time.
Early 2000 saw the beginning of the popular long range shooting , with higher bc bullets, better rangefinders, scopes and faster twist in custom rifle barrels. Faster twist barrels ( and therefore higher bc projectiles)is really what has been holding up on some calibers to perform better at longer range . But also the more common availability ( or mandatory requirement) of shooting copper projectiles ( which sometimes require a faster twist) helped to push brands like browning and more recently tikka/Sako ( and the new Remingtons in the USA) to release on the market rifles with faster twist barrels .
The new copper projectiles in the small diameters( .22 and 6 mm) launched at high speed might be very promising. And as with any other cartridges shot placement is still essential.
One of my acquaintances, who was à hunting guide from the mid 70 ‘s to the mid 2010, after shooting 1000s of deer in Europe, noticed a vast improvement in Killing power, or should I say killing time by using lighter projectiles at faster speed on game with in reasonable hunting distance ( under 250/ 300m). Shooting cup and core 6mm 75 grain hollow points in 243 for roe deer, 80 gr in 243 for red deer and 110 to 125 gr in 308 or 30-06 seemed to result in an instant shock and or death and a shortening of the running distance when compared to the use of heavier projectiles.

So when I see those now modern light copper projectiles used in lesser diameter cartridges (22 and 6 creedmoor for example ) launched at high speed still taking out big deer, I am not entirely surprised of the results. Again shot placement is everything ( to my knowledge 2 elephants have been unofficially taken down with a 22 lr in Kenya, which does not mean that it is a suitable caliber for pachyderms) with in certain limits.

Shoot what makes you happy.

If that’s 300 grainers, all g.

If it’s 55 grainers that’s all g too.

I haven’t used anything other than my 6XC for close to a decade despite having options in my safe up to .338 for close to a decade. Just cos it makes me happy. Ironically the same cal as my first deer as an 8 year old. A VERY long time ago.

Shoot what makes you happy.

Left field question, how big a driver toward smaller calibres of late has been the cost (and availability perhaps) of components? Loading for 223, say on average 25 gn of powder or thereabouts, compared to say 308W on average around 45gn. So roughly twice the number of loads from the tub. Worst case a third more loads. Then small rifle primers were noticeable lower priced, and more available iirc while non-premium 223 brass like ADI you could barely give away. Plenty suitable for most of our requirements. For someone on a budget wanting to shoot a lot it became (is) quite compelling. No?

225eldm over 80gn Retumbo lol

So if you look at this historically to when in past a lot of deer were shot with mostly 222,the numbers of animals was high,spotlighting was common and it wasn't uncommon to shoot more than one deer per day.... Then came the lean years of late 70s early eighties where if you were lucky and or skilled you MIGHT see a deer every other trip( hell I was happy to spook one every third trip) so you shot quickly to anchor animal and ,for me at least,shot placement wasn't always ideal....if I mucked around that chance was gone so I took what was on offer....the heavy hitting rounds were good for this....fast forward to now....we again see high numbers of animals, particularly on farm blocks,spotlighting has just about been replaced by thermals and if you pass up shot on deer now,there still good chance you may get another.... Matt Grant used the 22hp savage to good effect on deer....that's not a hell of a lot different to a 223 with fast twist n heavy pill.... Our gear is so much better and reliable now. Rangefinders and dial up capable scopes not to mention computer generated drop charts.

Originally Posted by bjp

Just musing while I eat my lunch:
1. better options with smaller diameter projectiles now? longer, high BC options, that also perform well on game at longer ranges? What was around 20 years ago?
2. smaller calibre nicer/easier to shoot accurately?
3. rifles (barrel really?) in general have just got better, allowing more precise shot placement at longer ranges
4. as above with optics
5. The ones who are using the 5.56/6mm cartridges with high BC bullets are simply more prolific on social media, youtube, etc, so we see more about it, while the rest of the hunting population just get on with it using their 270, 308, 30-06, etc...

I think the second oenreally nails it on the head....If you look at what damage to humanely drop an animal and WHERE you have to do that damage, accuracy is one of the most critical factors. I am not talking hit the centre of a 5c piece at 500 yards, but knowing that if you intend to destroy the lungs / heart, that first you need to be able to put the bullet there... SO ask yourself,,,can you get a smaller bullet there more easily seeing as there will be less recoil, and less flinch? Will it get into the animal deep enough to do what is needed to be done? A bigger bullet with more power wont do any more damage if it does not connect with where it is supposed to inflict said damage. But if it does there is usually more damage done meaning "wriggle room" if the shooter is off slightly.

Put it this way, You can drive a 4 inch nail in with a 4oz tack hammer if you can swing it fast enough and hit the nail....but if you use a 20oz or 40oz hammer you will have an easier job of it if you are slighlty off but if you cannot hit the nail with a 20oz but you can with a 4 oz then you will have more luck driving the nail in if you hit it than if you miss with the bigger hammer....In this scenario, I tend to hunt with a 8lb sledge....

I watched Fiona Duley absolutely wallop a big main divide red stag with a big 338 the other night. It was an NZ Hunter episode recently dropped on youtube and I remember watching the episode when it first came out. It gave me dangerous thoughts of daaamn that was cool, I want one

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

Shoot what makes you happy.

If that’s 300 grainers, all g.

If it’s 55 grainers that’s all g too.

I haven’t used anything other than my 6XC for close to a decade despite having options in my safe up to .338 for close to a decade. Just cos it makes me happy. Ironically the same cal as my first deer as an 8 year old. A VERY long time ago.

Shoot what makes you happy.

defefintly that.

as going with the thread ive being using .223 for ...over 25 yesrs now. 55g whatever ammo i happen to have. sometimes its was the only centerfire rifle i had. i may not have done as much hunting as many of the esteemed members on here but most times i pulled the trigger i had a positive result. funnily enough most failures were with different calibres. have to be siad i dont strain the barrel n can often see the whites of there eyes...

My mate ony shoots deer with .223 and told me to go and get one, so naturally I went to the store and asked about them. First thing he asked me was why I would use it on deer, especially if im just starting out.
Told me im better off with a 30 cal, ideally. 308. Said you need good shot placement to take down a deer with .223 but seems many use them if the thread here is anything to go by.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

So if you look at this historically to when in past a lot of deer were shot with mostly 222, the numbers of animals was high spotlighting was common and it wasn't uncommon to shoot more than one deer per day.... Then came the lean years of late 70s early eighties where if you were lucky and or skilled you MIGHT see a deer every other trip( hell I was happy to spook one every third trip) so you shot quickly to anchor animal and ,for me at least,shot placement wasn't always ideal....if I mucked around that chance was gone so I took what was on offer....the heavy hitting rounds were good for this....fast forward to now....we again see high numbers of animals, particularly on farm blocks,spotlighting has just about been replaced by thermals and if you pass up shot on deer now,there still good chance you may get another.... Matt Grant used the 22hp savage to good effect on deer....that's not a hell of a lot different to a 223 with fast twist n heavy pill.... Our gear is so much better and reliable now. Rangefinders and dial up capable scopes not to mention computer generated drop charts.

Yes, if you have a lot more opportunities it makes a big difference.

if you threw the big brass at em and it hit that alone would flatten em are you sure these arent ex 105mmpack howitzer shells ?????

Originally Posted by akaroa1

NO

Small bore will never catch on

I'm in the process of building a 577 3" Black Powder Express rifle because 450s and 500s just aren't big enough

Two formed 577 3" cases flanked by 223 rounds

Attachment 287061

Ideal for signaling bi-planes in WW1

I've started preparing some once fired Lapua .243 brass for an experiment.

Talking of experiments, the rifle I'm keen to hear more about is @Kiwi Greg 's 6mm CM with a crazy fast Hammer copper bullet. Seems like a pretty good example.

I reckon if I could only have one rifle, it would be a 6mm with a fast twist barrel. Maybe 6mm GT?

with a 6mm able to shoot projectile weights 58gn to say 105gn at 3000 fps, that's enough, right? In conventional terms 105gn might sound a bit light, but with the relatively high sectional density, its not going to bounce of animals!