Sorry mate, you lost me at " I only just started talking to the guy yesterday", after stating that you have spent a lot of time and effort gaining his trust
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Sorry mate, you lost me at " I only just started talking to the guy yesterday", after stating that you have spent a lot of time and effort gaining his trust
I am very untrustworthy;) you’re on to me :D but like i said i like what you’re trying to do, just not onboard with the ‘how’. Good luck
Firstly, why do you care how much time I spent exactly if in the end he has agreed to send one over for testing? is it you think I made up this entire story or is it you think if I did not spend what you would consider "enough hours" you think he will change his mind tomorrow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pengy
Secondly, if you think by a lot I meant hundreds of hours talking to him? you have to be kidding yourself then, mate. We all got a busy job and even busier life.
FWIW, back in January I first talked to the guy (a different guy) who run their facebook page. He is a wholesale guy and he handles marketing for this brand (T-Eagle). we spent a lot of time discussing their marketing direction and the lack of review, etc. anyway at the end of it all he was not keen on this idea of sending one over for free, he was willing to send one over at cost for me to do the reviews. I did not take up his offer. I did not want to spend a few hundred bucks, having to write a comprehensive review, and then stuck with a bad scope. But he is a friendly guy and I still chat with him every now and then.
Then I tracked down the actual manager of this brand, a girl. I then chatted with her. I told her that I have been interested in this scope because the specs look very good however there are no reviews on the internet at all. Her response was that this scope is made for domestic market so they have not and probably will not make the effort to market it overseas (now that made no sense to me, but that is another story). I pretty much gave up at that point. Then she said why dont you talk to my boss, so she put me in touch with with this guy (who is now offering to send one over). I pretty much had to go through every argument I made to the first guy and the girl (well, I make a living persuade people). He is definitely interested in the international market (in my view the only real market). So in the end he agreed in principle to send one over.
Anyway, if you think my efforts are not good enough for you, that is fine.
Do you have a group of mates that could all give it a burn?
What's the end game? Just that some people get to have a burn on a different scope or you looking to build some faith in the product so you can become the importer for them?
Also what kind of time frame are you expecting trials to be conducted in?
Not sure why people are getting so sensitive over the bond idea, lots of places you rent specialist gear from require the same.
I have seen other forums having pass-arounds. usually the forum is run by a store or a brand so the store/brand owner puts one up for the pass-around. They often do not require bond because they give out seconds for the pass-around and from their perspective, they do this to generate publicity for their own benefit. They are also usually very selective on who they let in on the pass-around. Only the very long term members who they (the owners) had past real dealings or transactions with. Even with this kind of restrictions the pass-arounds often do not work too well. After a few stops things get damaged or lost, or someone simply cannot be bothered returning it. It creates headache for the organiser and other people who wanted to have a go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
This forum had a lapping kit to share, right? can you share with us how did that go?
I personally do not benefit from the publicity, I also do not know members of this forum enough to assess people's individual responsibleness, reliability, and how good they take care of communal goods. I also think that kind subjective assessment could be wrong and/or unfair. It is better to just let anyone who is willing to put up the bond to have a go.
1. I have no interest to be an importer. I got a job I love and I work 60~ 70 a week. If I was to make money importing stuff from China, I would import concrete, bricks, and steel. In other words non-distinguishable goods, not highly brand sensitive goods like rifle scopes. Besides Aliexpress' prices are already pretty good. If this scope turns out good, I may buy one, others may buy one, I will try to negotiate a good price for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibblet
2. If everyone gets 2 weeks, add shipping time and bank clearing time (and a bit of slack for me) we can do about one stop every 3 weeks. if 10 people had a turn it will take 30 weeks, or a little 7 months. If everyone was to have 3 weeks, then each stop would be 4 weeks.
Not something I'd personally be interested in trialling. Would rather just hear the reports from one or two people with proper experience with various quality brands, or even better put up against side by side both top end and scopes in the same price and specification range.
Basically all you really need to know is things like clarity, low light ability, eye box forgiveness throughout the mag range, consistent and accurate tracking.
After these it's all about product backup which is more important.
Just send it to @gimp for free, he likes making movies.
But I don’t like paying rando cash bonds to people I don’t know, in order to spend my time and energy reviewing probably-junk Optics that I’m not interested in
didn't you have a vortex you reviewed? And a angle dialing leupold :DQuote:
Originally Posted by gimp
I like the idea, I would be happy to have a play with it and review it but I dont have 400 bucks for something I may not buy and may fall to pieces on my rifle.
@Nibblets idea above has merit....send it to the gimp and also @Kiwi Greg
Slow to the party, the gimps not keen tho I bet he would be if he wasnt paying....as would I.
Yeah shame about the Leupold. Never reviewed a Vortex thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Nibblet
I will be doing the first review anyway, if this comes through. Those who are on the fence can decide later based on my review.
I would just like to point out that the forum chronographs have been circulating for years now with no deposit required and thus far to the best of my knowledge they haven't been pinched or gone missing. Maybe a bit of goodwill (ie: not having to pay $400 in the first place) would get this idea off the ground?
There is also an American forum that also has a Facebook group that runs raffles twice weekly which is pretty neat, if you want in you chuck ten bucks in and there's a high end scope as the prize, it seems to work pretty well as there's a better chance of winning something than blowing $20 on lotto every week and its a non profit initiative ie: if the scope is worth $2k they only sell $2k worth of tickets
a common garden variety spring powered air rifle will kill it just as quick as a 300 magnum..... the recoil is in both directions so worse.
interesting concept.personally I dont own a scope that has cost me over $400 and cant see it ever happening.
Oh this is a a PASS around? I thought it was a PISS around!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
On that note, I loaned out some dvd`s but have no idea where they are now :( My bad I guess. Should of got a huge deposit
I believe it is common practice to supply freeby products for field testing to magazines etc
I've seen NightForces video, apparently if your out of ammo you can through them at your prey or use them as a club to beat it to death then re-attach to your rifle with no POI change. Could be why they cost heaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mmwsm
It is much more complex than that and I am sure you know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pengy
1. The products are usually loaned, not gifted, to the media outlet (magazine, website, youtube channel, etc). At the end of the review, unless it was a T-shirt, it usually has to be returned back to the provider. Or else why dont we all just start an exotic car review mag and become instant millionaires by selling our free review cars?
2. Usually there are highly refined commercial contracts in place, addressing issues of risk, insurance, obligations, and disclosure.
3. Usually one has to be at least a medium heavy weight media to get free loan products for reviews (in other words, have proven circulation of your publication), and one needs to have ongoing relationships with the product providers. In fact, if you read firearm and related products review on the internet, most are done by people who pay their own hard earned cash for the product.
Now let's compare what we are doing here:
1. This is a New Zealand website. International traffic exists but not that big. We are not Rimfire Central, or Sniper's Hide, or Optics Talk.
2. We are not obligated to produce a 10 page comprehensive tech review that must include things like test results for resolving power when looking at an imatest chart at 300 meters, or light transmission percentage measurement, or precise maximum recoil tolerance, etc. I can tell you a website I have been going to for about 12 years which gets free loan gear to test. DPReview.com. See one of their latest review : https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-m50. This is the level of professional review you may be expected to produce if you want to get a free loaner.
3. The pass-around that I am trying to put together is intended to be accessible to anyone who is interested in having a go. One does not have to be a highly published and respected tech journalist to participate. One does not even have to have any review experience or published anything or any technical knowledge of rifle scopes. Anyone who has these skills and want a go, great. Anyone who has none of these skills but just want to play and try out a new scope, can do too. And can do it for FREE.
4. No one has the time to draft, or can be bothered to go through, a lengthy and onerous contract to further refine each side's obligations. A $400 bond to have free play with for a $500 scope is the best balance that I can think of between many competing considerations such as collective convenience, individual responsibleness, equal access, and risk allocation.
This is all way too complicated and you are writing far too many words.
Why haven't you simply told the supplier that there are risks and that you won't be held liable, and asked him to agree to that. Why should the punters' here fund the risk? - there's more in it for the supplier (especially if the thing shapes up)?
Its a good idea in principle but I can't understand why its all so fussy.
Just get the thing and try it yourself and then lend it out to whoever you feel ok about. If they are forum members the risk of being outed if they breach your trust will keep them honest. Stick to established and reasonable term posters and you will be right. The worst that can happen is that you have to tell some chap in China that his 'scope broke. Tough cookies.
As someone who is directly involved with this sort of thing, in the shooting/firearms industry, I can say that this is mostly correct but not quite as in-depth as you make it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimitsu
We loan out firearms and optics to various online "personalities" and magazines etc to test or review. The same firearm would go to multiple different people or magazines as we generally only have one or two of any given optic or firearm for demo purposes. We do require them back.
The requirements that we place on the borrower are not so stringent, we do not go into great detail about what - if anything is expected. (assuming its not some kind of review that you pay for - but most are not, that creates a biased review or add.) Most personalities or magazines want to review your product or do a write up on it for the benefit of their magazine or page, so its a win-win all round. You pay for product advertisements but generally not reviews or write ups.
Everyone wants to be the first to get their hands on a new rifle or scope and review it in their magazine etc. We like to let them use it as they see fit and give impressions as to what they really think of the product that relate to how they would actually use it. We do not have a check list of points to be covered. Reviews should be genuine thoughts and not a check list, otherwise its an advertisement.
We do not have any lengthy contracts etc to over complicate things. We sign the item out, with details as to who / what its for, and a due date for return and that's about it. I think the crux of it is, in the vast majority of cases they go to people/ personalities who are established in the industry, so you know they are not going to disappear with your products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
1. it is not fussy, it is simple. If interest, participate. If not interested, do not participate. I write all these words to address various issues not raised by me.
2. Each person only "fund the risk" against themselves. No one is asked to pay bond for someone else's action or omission. I plan to send to the next person a few photos and maybe even a quick video of the scope every time before I send out the actual scope. If the next person in line is convinced that the scope is in good condition (i.e. not already damaged by the previous person), then I send out the scope.
3. I already explained that the supplier does not mind not getting the scope back. But he wants, and I also want, as many people to have a free go as possible. that requires every person who is having a go to:
a. use it with care. b. treating it with care when transporting/posting/storing, c. send it back on time when their time is up. That is not going to happen if everyone gets it without putting up a bond. It will likely to get lost, damaged, or delayed in going to the next guy very quickly. That is why the pass-around in other forums are often very restrictive. Only the privileged few, like long term donating members and admins, get a go.
4. to address your point about why dont I just pass it to people who I think is "alright". Well I do not know anyone on this forum personally. Moreover and interestingly (and some may consider me cynical for saying so), if I needed proof that some people feel too entitled, I need look no further than this very thread.
1) You write like a lawyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimitsu
2) I'm a simple person
3) But I understand how trust works, and you do not.
If you want this test to get off the ground I suggest you do your due diligence, and you take the risk on those who you deem fit.
I understand this is different as you are not a company, and the testers are merely people on this forum. But if this is important to you or the manufacturer, and you want it to get any traction then you need to be the one taking the risk.
I think you should approach established personalities, for example people with thousands of facebook followers and ask them to give it a no obligations test and post their feelings. You will get feedback from people who know what they are talking about, can influence others, and your risk is greatly reduced.
I have to agree. The forum chronographs always seem to be a "where is it? " topic on here.[emoji16]Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimitsu
I am not looking for any new optics as I am satisfied with what I have but I would happily participate if the bond was say half the value of the scope with a promise of you buy it if you break it thru negligence.
I would not want anyone who does not have the ability to mount a scope with the correct tooling to participate either.
You will get ring marks etc but maybe have a set torque limit for the rings.
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Nah, what Ultimitsu is actually trying to do is put together the required material for his LAWS211 paper.
What if it gets damaged due to recoil? I'm asking this because 180 gn superformance is close to magnum performance. Say if the scopes been on a few 308's a couple of 270's etc befor I get it and the 30 06 is the straw that broke the camels back would I be out $400.00?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimitsu
Short answer is, as I said in the very first post, it is not your problem. You will get your bond money back. Possible recoil damage is the very first thing I told the guy that may happen and he is cool with it. I believe people who put up bond money to try out a scope are not likely to use it on a calibre that we had all agreed to be avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve123
These factories make scopes for big brands like Vortex, Bushnell, Nikon, etc. They know the specs set out by these big brands and they know that against these specs the OEM scopes can withstand big calibres. Most centrefire scopes sold by big brands do not set limit on 300 win mag, rather, 50 cal. So when these factories make brand-less scopes or local (Chinese) branded scopes using the same technology and materials, the resulting scopes are probably also good enough for up to 50 cal. But, these factories have no real firearms to test, so no one can know for sure when they make scopes of their own design.
That is why, in the interest of letting everyone have a go I plan to set the limit at 300 win mag. That is where I am fairly confident it should survive (but hey if it still dies, write it in the review!). Also, people who shoot larger calibres will probably not be interested in a $500 2-16x scope anyway.
I'd be keen on testing with a 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimitsu
Go to my give-a-lot page ( www.familieskeepingmebroke.com )and help make this happen.
Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk
1. I take that as a compliment :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
2. Nah, I think you are reasonable and intelligent. We simply see things differently.
3. Maybe, who knows. Much of my work involves getting people to pay up when they breach trust. :) But that can be extremely tedious and expensive.
Chris, thanks for your comment. But I get nothing out of this other than a chance to play as well. I do not sell these scopes and do not plan to ever sell them. I am not the marketing guy for this brand and I got other things to do than due diligence and seek out the right person etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisW
Equality is also part of my goal, that anyone who wants a go can have a go.
So if I am involved. This is what we do (but there are some suggestions in this thread that I think may be good ideas). This is meant to be a forum pass-around, not an advertising campaign.