Thread: Why shorten?

Not really if your dialing already. It will effect point blank range sure. But point blank range has lots of error anyway. But if your dialing the difference that matters is the difference from the modeled drop not the difference between a fast and slow bullet. A chrono solves that problem and if your not using a chrono a chronographed slow load will out perform at guessed fast load at range until your drops are all trued.

Also as has been discussed drop contributes to such a small part of the error compared to ones ability to shot in the field, wind calling, total rifle accuracy, bullet consistency and having a good zero.

If velocity made any really difference the PRS guys would all be running bullets fast as but usually they are launching a 6mm bullet at pretty modest velocities.

Yeah while we all love to argue ballistics and precision, those are almost never the reason a person misses a deer in reality

so true gimp I have taken hunters out and we have check zeroed their rifle beforehand - and then they have clean missed easy shots at 50 yds

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Tan comes in a spray bottle..... Head down arse up and hope like hell cool heads prevail.

I am surprised the subject of straight pulls hasn't come up.

Originally Posted by vulcannz

I am surprised the subject of straight pulls hasn't come up.

Yet......

Originally Posted by gimp

Yeah while we all love to argue ballistics and precision, those are almost never the reason a person misses a deer in reality

I think most people are so caught up on ballistics and accuracy because they tacitly admit they are the main cause of misses so removing all other factors gives them their best chance of hitting the target.
I'm happy to admit the obvious.

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Guys, it is not about weight!

Anyone who has spent time negotiating through the bush knows that you constantly need to dip, duck, dodge and dive every few seconds (well, depending on how fast you walk). When you're carrying your rifle you need to constantly twist you tiny little forearm muscles with your rifle in your hand as you're body is moving...all this twisting with your forearms comes at a cost, and you constantly need to use muscular force overcome the inertia of your rifle that wants to resist twisting.

You need to consider the physics of rotational intertia:

Inertia=mass*radius^2

This means that the mass you need to move is important, but the radius [length] is importanter. A longer rifle means more intertia to overcome and therefore faster fatigue in your forearm muscles. A shorter rifle is easier to twist and rotate, which is important when you're walking hours and hours through the bush.

I have two 16" bush rifles: a lightewight Tikka .308 and a Bergara BA13 singleshot .308 that is 500g heavier (but ~3" shorter due to being a singleshot). The Bergara is arguaby the worst of the two rifles for hunting, but it is hands down the easiest to carry (despite the weight) and I therefore use it the most. Besides, I spend much more time walking with my rifle than I do needing a fast follow up shot.

As another anecdote, my 24" 7mm rem mag is not something I would ever dream about bush hunting with, and it's not due to the weight.

Go home and dance around the yard with a broom handle, then try a hammer. You will feel the difference.

(sorry if someone already brought this up -- I didn't read all 7 pages)

Originally Posted by goodseltzer

Guys, it is not about weight!

Anyone who has spent time negotiating through the bush knows that you constantly need to dip, duck, dodge and dive every few seconds (well, depending on how fast you walk). When you're carrying your rifle you need to constantly twist you tiny little forearm muscles with your rifle in your hand as you're body is moving...all this twisting with your forearms comes at a cost, and you constantly need to use muscular force overcome the inertia of your rifle that wants to resist twisting.

You need to consider the physics of rotational intertia:

Inertia=mass*radius^2

This means that the mass you need to move is important, but the radius [length] is importanter. A longer rifle means more intertia to overcome and therefore faster fatigue in your forearm muscles. A shorter rifle is easier to twist and rotate, which is important when you're walking hours and hours through the bush.

I have two 16" bush rifles: a lightewight Tikka .308 and a Bergara BA13 singleshot .308 that is 500g heavier (but ~3" shorter due to being a singleshot). The Bergara is arguaby the worst of the two rifles for hunting, but it is hands down the easiest to carry (despite the weight) and I therefore use it the most. Besides, I spend much more time walking with my rifle than I do needing a fast follow up shot.

As another anecdote, my 24" 7mm rem mag is not something I would ever dream about bush hunting with, and it's not due to the weight.

Go home and dance around the yard with a broom handle, then try a hammer. You will feel the difference.

(sorry if someone already brought this up -- I didn't read all 7 pages)

I have the same two rifles, although the BA13 is 300BLK and have come to the same conclusion as you. I've read on this forum that short rifles give no benefit when bush hunting. I disagree, not least because the rifle is often slung. Why? Because I'm on my hands and knees or using my hands to climb up a bluff. Others have said hunt the clearings, unfortunately they are few and far between up here.

Originally Posted by gimp

Yeah while we all love to argue ballistics and precision, those are almost never the reason a person misses a deer in reality

To put some numbers around this, here are simulated error budgets from the AB app for my 7mm08 at 300m . For a 20cm circle, it estimates a hit probability of 57% which is starting to get interesting because something is degrading accuracy and would cause a significant number of misses. At 200m it is 94% so not as informative. The figure of 57% is within ballpark of my own experience in field target shooting (gongs).

Here are the parameters I used:
Numbers are sd except “Rifle Error” is 5 shot group diameter ie about 2-3x sd.
0.4 mRad is as good as I can get shooting over a pack in the field. Using sandbags its typically 0.3 for this rifle. Shooting unsupported sitting it would be more like 1.5 (6”@100). Windsge attributable to 0.2 sd wind at 90 degrees is a full 1.0 mRad:



Here is a cloud of 1000 simulated impacts, showing mostly horizontal dispersion, due to uncertain wind:



Here are causes of elevation variability. Note Im using a range finder and have put in 1m sd for range.




Here are the causes of horizontal errors, which are dominated by wind uncertainty with “rifle error” well behind:

Originally Posted by Bagheera

To put some numbers around this, here are simulated error budgets from the AB app for my 7mm08 at 300m . For a 20cm circle, it estimates a hit probability of 57% which is starting to get interesting because something is degrading accuracy and would cause a significant number of misses. At 200m it is 94% so not as informative. The figure of 57% is within ballpark of my own experience in field target shooting (gongs).

Here are the parameters I used:
Numbers are sd except “Rifle Error” is 5 shot group diameter ie about 2-3x sd.
0.4 mRad is as good as I can get shooting over a pack in the field. Using sandbags its typically 0.3 for this rifle. Shooting unsupported sitting it would be more like 1.5 (6”@100). Windsge attributable to 0.2 sd wind at 90 degrees is a full 1.0 mRad:

Attachment 289073

Here is a cloud of 1000 simulated impacts, showing mostly horizontal dispersion, due to uncertain wind:

Attachment 289070

Here are causes of elevation variability. Note Im using a range finder and have put in 1m sd for range.

Attachment 289071


Here are the causes of horizontal errors, which are dominated by wind uncertainty with “rifle error” well behind:

Attachment 289072

Something? You mean wind uncertainty right?

It can be improved by going to a more suitable cartridge, like .223




Realistically the "rifle precision" component can vary greatly situationally depending on the shooter error contribution, which is much greater in field positions.

Originally Posted by goodseltzer

Guys, it is not about weight!

Anyone who has spent time negotiating through the bush knows that you constantly need to dip, duck, dodge and dive every few seconds (well, depending on how fast you walk). When you're carrying your rifle you need to constantly twist you tiny little forearm muscles with your rifle in your hand as you're body is moving...all this twisting with your forearms comes at a cost, and you constantly need to use muscular force overcome the inertia of your rifle that wants to resist twisting.

You need to consider the physics of rotational intertia:

Inertia=mass*radius^2

This means that the mass you need to move is important, but the radius [length] is importanter. A longer rifle means more intertia to overcome and therefore faster fatigue in your forearm muscles. A shorter rifle is easier to twist and rotate, which is important when you're walking hours and hours through the bush.

I have two 16" bush rifles: a lightewight Tikka .308 and a Bergara BA13 singleshot .308 that is 500g heavier (but ~3" shorter due to being a singleshot). The Bergara is arguaby the worst of the two rifles for hunting, but it is hands down the easiest to carry (despite the weight) and I therefore use it the most. Besides, I spend much more time walking with my rifle than I do needing a fast follow up shot.

As another anecdote, my 24" 7mm rem mag is not something I would ever dream about bush hunting with, and it's not due to the weight.

Go home and dance around the yard with a broom handle, then try a hammer. You will feel the difference.

(sorry if someone already brought this up -- I didn't read all 7 pages)

Technically. BUT The amount of extra length we are generally talking is around 100-150 mm, and as the centre of balance changes and you hand moves backwards too new centre, thats halved to maybe 50-75mm of difference.
And shortening the barrel then putting a heavy weight, ie a silencer on it will move that weight further out and potentially negate any advantage in reducing rotational inertia.

99% of my hunting is with a 20" suppressed .243, suppressor makes it a 25" barrel, stock is a little on the heavy side ( fibreglass ) so the suppressor gives good balance for carry and handling. Longer barrel, balance is wrong, shorter barrel, cost is velocity.

The recently I bought another one of these in .270 Win: just waiting for it to get here, days ticking over soooo slowly....

No way in hell is it being shortened or suppressed - suppressor will totally whack it's balance and make it 9 feet long. Going to squeeze 3k out of it with 150gn pills ( maybe the 145 ELDX, not yet convinced ) but most importantly, aesthetics!

This is why I use the skinny gunworks suppressor as it comes back further towards stock.

Just remove the recoil pad and add 300g of lead into the butt. Balance issue solved!

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