Eight on the council...why an even number...to be truly democratic an odd number allows for the power of veto...if the vote was even, then what?
Printable View
Eight on the council...why an even number...to be truly democratic an odd number allows for the power of veto...if the vote was even, then what?
I'd agree but on one level your two statements contradict each other.
Can you provide links to the pages/ forums/ websites where the chairman has had "shit flying" at him? Currently we only have a suggestion this has occurred.
In the employment dispute or on social media?
I know nothing of the employment dispute and neither should you? Social media- It's one way traffic. There is a possibility current council is 100% squeaky clean and plays no part in the relationship breakdown council are playing out. However from minutes I have read I have some confusion of what role council thinks it has i.e are they micro managing rather than governing? Setting policy which is its role rather than managing it's own affairs for example. If this didn't play some part in the breakdown I'd be very surprised. The manager manages the outcomes for the policy set by the governors. Councillors are not the managers and not the employers of the staff.
BAD BEHAVIOUR- From a personal observation current council has provided the special meeting minutes within days of the meeting, when the regular meeting minutes from their August meeting have yet to be made available. The content of the special meeting minutes haven't even been confirmed. To an impartial reader it is pretty clear those minutes have more to do with a break down in a relationship and campaigning against an individual rather than the moral conducting of business in a regular manner. So on that level as I have stated the council and chairman have shown a lack of class and behaved badly. I have also said there is not a chance I would want to be employed by them. Look at the potential treatment.
Did I read the current secretary is dishing dirt to current council for airing on public forums. Why would she be asked or get involved? Does council have some damning emails on the secretary? But thats not poor behaviour either.....
Think of it like this Mike. If Greg Duley turned up on national TV in a straight jacket foaming from the mouth tonight he would still be voted back on council on name recognition alone. That is basically how elections work. Greg doesn't need to embroil himself in character assassination and public slinging matches- unless he wants to cloud relevant issue's.
[QUOTE]I have no reason to believe the drop in numbers wasn't to ensure an election as he has said. How they went about it I'm not sure as I don't know what the process is for that.[/QUOTE]
a]not the point
b]how long you been a southland councillor mike h ??presumembly it would have to be proposed 2nd,d and the national councill would have to be involved either before or after??
what i do find incongrous i apparently the other side of the hb debacle is saying plenty but all we are getting is the chairman/councills side??
guess if you couch your shit slinging in lawyers calls and fiegned courtesy its different from calling a spade a spade over there at least:D
[QUOTEI have been told that the council cannot reveal the main reason why the previous managers employment was terminated as his lawyer demanded a confidentiality agreement.
Some very dodgy sh*t going on][/QUOTE]
a] what leverage did have have to demand anything??
b]you said a mouthful there pal:D
Mike offered his opinion GSPF. This simply hasn't come up before that I am aware of. There is an election in HB, so if that was the intent it worked. There is an election with 8 candidates. Nothing changes that. Elections underpin the very fabric of our society so I very much doubt anything dodgy has occurred.
ever heard of one richard nixon:D
and i thank mike for his opinion tim but i seriously thought as a councillor of long standing he might be able to give us at least some clues to the process. i mean shit they couldnt just decide something of that magnitude and not survey thier licence buyers at least??oops shit sorry mike h to soon huh:D
i dont doubt its the first tim but id still like to know how it was done just in case theres a second:yaeh am not durnk:
thats the only side we are getting at the moQuote:
I can't blame the chairman for coming out and putting his views out there as there's a lot of shit flying around about them so they have to be able to offer their side.
how those censored emails arent a breach of the confidentiality agreement surprises me ?
true enough but the last thing you want is government interference that would be just the excuse the f&g haters in power would need to gut f&g,s structure.Quote:
I also stand by my statement that this sort of shit is the last thing F&G as a whole needs. I like your idea of the commissioner to be honest.
look at ecan and cera as examples.
hear, hear, @gsp follower....
And that's all we will get- one side- if the other has any sense. I think it's a bluff. I doubt baiting another party is a new trick. Think of it this way, if the other party breaches confidentiality the terms of the agreement might be annulled? Even in the current council have breached confidentiality it's only more license holder money to defend a case. Council are not personally liable so essentially council can campaign as they like with relative impunity or personal liability.
May the best 8 win.
i,l pardon the pun tim:D.
i guess they cant be to frightened of whatever leverage he had to get the agreement in the first place or they,re confident in thier numbers to be able to ride it out?
true tim the only loser in the whole thing will the licence payer but im still curious over how the 8 came to be.
8 maybe all rinky dink but if the process to get there isnt open and inclusive then it just smacks of more 'we know whats best for you '' behavior that pee,d licence buyers off countrywide.
were any of our hb member licence buyers fish or fowl surveyed??:O_O::oh noes:
so sad for a region that used to boast its own gamebird release programs and farm.
i shot many ducks on the dams of mangatapiri station out elsthorpe way as a newby on a 20$ licence with a 10 mallard limit.
the big rawhiti dam in the mangatapiri hill paddock with its cabbage tree maimai was something i,l never forget.
that and getting my uncle who got me into duckshooting onto a few as we jump shot this dam and several others.
my brother even joined the pass shooters on private land to catch the waves of ducks leaving horseshoe lake on a lowcloud blusterly night or 5.
[QUOTE ] Think of it this way, if the other party breaches confidentiality the terms of the agreement might be annulled? Even in the current council have breached confidentiality it's only more license holder money to defend a case.][/QUOTE]
jesus tho what could an employment court or other judge penelise them for such a breach if he considered it a serious and wanton act??
Getting back to the office administrator/secretary...got thinking about this today and her cautioning people to be careful what they said is to my mind at least acting in a professional manner...unlike some...
Tim Allen wrote....
Even in the current council have breached confidentiality it's only more license holder money to defend a case.
What would be a ball park figure for such a case...blatant mischief to spend OUR money for what??
I want to comment also about the ballot blocks...of the blocks I was successful in the ballot, my dogs and I did not see one bird...as in pheasant or quail...NOT A ONE...someone said rather unkindly, well your dogs can't be much good then...my ballot returns reflected this...my young dog did, however, get onto deer scent in the Esk, naturally enough I brought him in as we were not there for big ears...
We did find some lovely watercress...at Tangoio!!!
Attachment 40936
My bitch and I walked for absolute miles...eight hours of it...cattle had been in the block and had cleaned out the cover for birds...we did see a hare and pig snoutings...
Attachment 40934
Our sortee to Gwavas was a complete joke...
Attachment 40935
I am not inferring that I did not appreciate the opportunities to see new ground...
Who know's EeeBees? It'll all come out in the wash no doubt. Speculation won't change anything. There is an election to get past in the mean time.
Sounds like a tuff time on the pheasants. Hopefully next year you bump into a few. Are any of the blocks you hunted getting stocked?
if only you had some meat and potTAOES TO SERVE IT WITH eebees:yaeh am not durnk:Quote:
We did find some lovely watercress...at Tangoio!!!
was it early or late in the season eebees had it been thrashed before you??
@gsp follower...yes, there were boot prints for Africa...no it was I think about the fourth week into the season...
@Tim Allen....apparently the ballot blocks or at least the forestry blocks have not had released birds put on them for quite a number of years.
jesus things seem to begetting very titchy in hawkes bay with he usual suspects clubbing together to undermine and bait a candidate??
true or false undermining a confidentiality agreement to smear a candidate and using various aliases and clique mates to do it seems over the top.
perhaps after the election an audit of the encumbents behavior might cause some tuttuting and cover seeking.
do this at over 50$ an hour plus expences seem pricey or is it just me??Quote:
3. Eastern will provide a total of 435 hours of staff time to the Hawke’s Bay, these being
provisionally allocated to the following tasks:
Admin 340 hrs
Trend counts 50 hrs
Datawatch 25 hrs
Drift diving 20 hrs
14. Such services will be provided as reasonably required to undertake related Fish and
Game management activities as set out in the Hawke’s Bay Region Operational Work
plan for the 2015-2016 year.
Charges
15.1 $24,360 (plus GST if any), to be invoiced quarterly ($6,090 plus GST).
15.2 Project specific expenses and disbursements where readily identifiable (e.g. food,
accommodation, equipment hire etc.)
That's probably about the going rate if you're contracting the work. I thick I've been volunteering myself to drift diving too cheap though.
After studying the minutes I have short listed a couple of management candidates to suit the governance style of the HB council. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyLsO6LpLSI
Gordon Bluddi Bennett, what next...?
my humble contribution:D
no such thing as mates rates between regions huh:yaeh am not durnk:Quote:
That's probably about the going rate if you're contracting the work. I thick I've been volunteering myself to drift diving too cheap though.
now i know why eastern managers are hanging around like a bad smell with a pheasant under one arm and a tame mallard under the other:D
yea the public can hunt them for a price :DQuote:
Well well, something was gonna happen. Like a boil it was only a matter of time. Unfortunately it would appear from innuendo, that the former manager has been paid out. The only thing you could say about the council's handling of this is that we were too sympathetic in dealing with all the issues that evolved during Mackintosh's time in the job.
The Council bent over backwards to help Mackintosh. To say council's relationship with staff was poor is just nonsense. The secretary had our utmost respect and we appreciated the lengths she went to to hold things together through some challenging times, way more so for her than the Council. It would be fantastic if everything could be out in the open.
On the matter of conflict of interest some of you are so wide of the mark it's sad. Jeff is one hell of a nice guy with a hell of a good brain and a huge asset to anything he gets involved with. He doesn't say much but when he does it's worth listening. He has done more for upland game in HB than all the conspiracy theorists put together. There would hardly be a pheasant to shoot in the Ngaruroro catchment without game preserves. Whether they start early and end late (for the juniors shoot) has zero negative impact on upland game for license holders. Someone really benefitted from all the banded birds released by Jeff this year. I hear a Simon fulla got 40 odd.
Councillor Bates runs a family shoot at Ngamatea station. He does not profit from this in fact I would think it costs him plenty. I can't see where his COI is. Game preserves I hope are here to stay. They provide much needed birds for the public to shoot. They provide opportunity for people to gain experience for themselves and their dogs. The quality of dogs and handlers has sky rocketed in HB at least, due to the preserves. They host juniors introducing young hunters to the excitement of pheasant shooting. There are so many positives for preserves that your glass would have to be 1/4 empty to think otherwise.
If you think you need to go through private land to catch fish then you haven't got out much. There is heaps of water everywhere in HB with fish the public can access. Do all that water and by then you you'll be so good you won't be coveting so much.
There is some toxic talk out there but rest assured the council whilst a little naive in dealing with some difficult employment issues more than have their integrity intact. I resigned from Council late last year for personal reasons, but during my time all the councillors acted honourably and in good faith in dealing with the issues presented to us. Maybe it is a time for some change but have a good read of the candidate profiles and read again. Research all the candidates and ask yourselves about integrity. I know who I am not voting for.
Jeremy Dearden.
funny thing is i didnt see one example of somone citing conflict of interest??
on the whole thread.
ngamatea was owned by the same outfit that owned the station i was on.
wonder where his pheasant seed stock/current stock comes from??
now who else guides/hunts on ngamatea for deer umummumm:yaeh am not durnk:
I'm calling wide there GSPF. I think there is two different things that need identifying there.
Some (all?) councils run a conflict register that you can identify any "potential" conflicts.You might include beneficial relationships (e.g salesman for goods distributor), occupation (e.g fishing guide), acquaintance (e.g friend of most of the before mentioned) or "other" considerations being a stand holder in a F&G wetland. This to help a good manager manage any potential conflicts of interest in the decision making process where one party or another may benefit from some form of valuable consideration. Basically if you don't want to disclose these things then perhaps public office isn't the place for you?
Actual conflict of interest in making a decision. For example imagine I sell guns and ammunition and a motion is presented looking to ban magazine extensions. I like selling gun parts and ammunition so my natural inclination is to defeat the motion if possible. This is a conflict and should be discussed and minuted. A council might decide I can present a case to continue using mag extensions but remove my ability to vote on the subject or have me take no part.
Not talked about but equally or more important is staff conflicts. Imagine hypothetically the CEO has legal friends that are struggling in the global financial slow down so invents a couple legal issue's to spend a substantial but undisclosed amount of license holder money without authorisation or due cause. There is nothing to identify or prevent this. Or perhaps the CEO could own a sporting goods shop and allow industry to lobby for favourable changes that could result in personal benefit. Steel shot the most obvious.
There is problems all over F&G which stem from the top. There is certainly problems with COI but the situation you mentioned isn't one of them in my view.
fair enough tim your good at seeing the deeper darker picture.
but things in hb seem bad enough that a ACC counsellor might need to visit:D
funny thing is of all the minutes ive looked at ,i dont believe ive seen one registered yet????Quote:
Some (all?) councils run a conflict register that you can identify any "potential" conflicts.]
have just read the candidates profiles in hb theres a sence of deep division there.
hope this beautiful region can sort its shit for the benefit of licence buyers and the wild fish and game stocks:O_O:
So correct thinking would suggest full probity is on display and no conflicts have occurred. The council office may hold a register of potential conflicts. A COI on a decision made would or should be recorded in the minutes. But who's actually watching anyway???
So a spot test for you GSPF to see if I made my point :P- give a hypothetical situation turning this resolution into an obvious COI.
(For this July 2014 Special Meeting- no conflicts of interest were recorded so we must assume allocating F&G money to investigate a commercial operation has some unseen benefit for the license buyer).
8.3 Council instructed staff to allocate 6K to the investigation of establishing a large commercial fish out pond. (14/07/8.3) Bates/ Nibblet
(Goodness knows what is behind such a resolution?)
i saw that and thought ''what the f..k'':O_O::D
theres obviously 2 differing views on the councill as to where our future lies ??
one would appear to support planting oppurtunities the other fighting for wild bird retention and enhancement.
but not doing wild counts and banding seems like putting your head in the sand and hopeing the problem either flies away or you get your solutions and info based on another regions maybe differing circumstances and topography.??.
i wonder for instance do the birds still raft up off blackhead beach or is horeshoe lake out elsthorpe way still a major refuge during the season??land use change woulsd seem obvious even from the differnces i noticed on the places i use to know.fuck me the patangata pubs only open 3 days a week and that in the avo:oh noes::XD:
[QUOTE.3 Council instructed staff to allocate 6K to the investigation of establishing a large commercial fish out pond. (14/07/8.3) Bates/ Nibblet
(Goodness knows what is behind such a resolution?)
[/QUOTE]
hehe
i cant see for the life of me how stopping banding and population monitoring adding a commercial fishout pond goes with the stated aims of some of the returning candidates
It is unclear if all monitoring has stopped? So their heads might not be in the sand. I'll explain why what you read concerns me anecdotally from available information.
From the same minutes re the fish out pond where no conflicts were registered.
8.1 Council opted to cease the banding of mallard........ Nibblett/ Duley
8.2 Council INSTRUCTED staff to reallocate funding from mallard banding to........ Nibblet/ Lumsden
NO BANDING?- If wild banded birds regularly turned up shot on a property that supplied captive bred birds to shoot it could provide an insight into the attractant potential of these live decoys and any adverse effect on the public access to the public resource. No banding, no problem (will show up). Would you want to provide information that might detract supplying captive bred birds if that is what you do? This is one way to view this resolution. Is there a conflict or a strong perception of one on these grounds? Obviously not going by the minutes.
In any council we are left with only the integrity of those holding public office to maintain the publics confidence in the organisations operations. Robust honest evaluation is required and recorded to maintain the perception of transparency and accountability. My perception is the publics confidence in F&G isn't gaining altitude.
its interesting that they cut this that and the other and say they support the mallard research program also whaT ELSE THE StYMIED IN THOSE QUOTEd lines .
but wouldnt you think you,d still want some sort of idea whats happening and pertinent to your region.
surely its not a case of we dont really want to know how bad it is we would rather anymore bad news came from somewhere/one else is go ie the AW/SOUTHLAND research.
and yes i can see if you go the put and take ducks root you would want embarrassing numbers of wild banded birds in the mix.:yaeh am not durnk:
hehe
i cant see for the life of me how stopping banding and population monitoring adding a commercial fishout pond goes with the stated aims of some of the returning candidates[/QUOTE]
Nor I, @gsp follower...
Fish out pond...what???? we have spectacular streams and rivers which attract fisherfolk the world over...meanwhile...there, minuted, is six thousand dollars to be allocated to a feasibility study...for crying out loud...what a wanton waste of licence money...there can be only one outcome to such a resolution...the feathering of a nest or nests...and obviously not a feral mallie's one...
[QUOTEFish out pond...what???? we have spectacular streams and rivers which attract fisherfolk the world over...meanwhile...there, minuted, is six thousand dollars to be allocated to a feasibility study][/QUOTE]
nail head eebees
methinks the culture in some regions is gearing towards the visitors while we pay the bill:O_O:
the amount of vested interest whether conflict declared or not has ,many shakeing thier heads.
I SAY AGAIN IM STILL WAITING ON SOME RELY FROM HAWLKES BAY ON THE PROCESS TO DROP THE COUNCIL NUMBERS??
IM STARTING TO GET SUSPICIOUS AND UNEASY SINCE I.VE HAD A REPLY AT NATIONAL LEVEL:wtfsmilie:
Voted today online. I used the broom technique.
kind of appropriate i reckon tho the smiles may be a little forced in the fruitbowl of the nth island:yaeh am not durnk:Quote:
But this same day
Must end that work the ides of March begun;
And whether we shall meet again I know not.
Therefore our everlasting farewell take:
For ever, and for ever, farewell, Cassius!
If we do meet again, why, we shall smile;
If not, why, then, this parting was well made.
HAWKE'S BAY FISH & GAME COUNCIL
UNCONFIRMED MINUTES OF A MEETING OF THE COUNCIL HELD
AT THE GAME FARM ON TUESDAY 18th AUGUST 2015 AT 6:00 PM
hallelujah finally :O_O: i could be a little cynical given theres only a days voting left;)
[QUOTE] That the administration staff of the Hawke’s Bay Fish and Game Council and Eastern Fish and Game Council are authorised to negotiate new and maturing term investments and make enquiries regarding all Hawke’s Bay Fish & Game Council bank accounts individually. (15/08/7.2.4) Boaler/Bates [QUOTE]
waaaaat the f..k for???
[QUOTE]s. Cr Duley replied that unfortunately, because Council was bound by a confidentiality agreement between both parties, Council could not publicly state what had happened, but assured all present, that the incoming council would be informed in a public excluded session. Tony Hill inquired what time limit applied to the confidentiality clause, and was informed it was a permanent agreement without a set time limit.[QUOTE]
unless your trying to win an election huh boys and girls*:D big grin
[QUOTE] Cr Duley expressed Council’s concerns at the allegations made anonymously to the Whale Oil blog site; it appeared these allegations were a personal attack on councillors to discredit them.[QUOTE]
a personel attack really where have we seen that recently*:D big grin
[QUOTE]Tuck (F&GNZ), Garrick (Eastern Regional Manager), Lyons (NZ Council
Chairman), Ferris (Eastern Councillor), Roderick (Eastern Councillor). [QUOTE]
to many eastern cooks for my liking no wonder the broths proving hard to swallow*:( sad
i hope im wrong but that filthy word amalgamation springs to mind.
what do our hawkes bayers think of potentialy hawkes bay eastern region ??
will they have a case theyre doing a lot of the work getting well paid admittedly but is this f&g,s version of a non hostile take over??
[QUOTE=gsp follower;403763]HAWKE'S BAY FISH & GAME COUNCIL
UNCONFIRMED MINUTES OF A MEETING OF THE COUNCIL HELD
AT THE GAME FARM ON TUESDAY 18th AUGUST 2015 AT 6:00 PM
hallelujah finally :O_O: i could be a little cynical given theres only a days voting left;)
[QUOTE] That the administration staff of the Hawke’s Bay Fish and Game Council and Eastern Fish and Game Council are authorised to negotiate new and maturing term investments and make enquiries regarding all Hawke’s Bay Fish & Game Council bank accounts individually. (15/08/7.2.4) Boaler/Bates [QUOTE]
waaaaat the f..k for???
so how come eastern have this privilege...??? so amalgamation would make it nice and easy, wouldn't it
[QUOTE]s. Cr Duley replied that unfortunately, because Council was bound by a confidentiality agreement between both parties, Council could not publicly state what had happened, but assured all present, that the incoming council would be informed in a public excluded session. Tony Hill inquired what time limit applied to the confidentiality clause, and was informed it was a permanent agreement without a set time limit.looks like it!!!Quote:
until it is contested:yaeh am not durnk:
what do our hawkes bayers think of potentialy hawkes bay eastern region ??
it is wrong, it is a travesty...it would be a massive area and if hawkes bay cannot handle the governance, what the blazes are they doing...why does hawkes bay need the assistance of eastern...ludicrous notion to my mind...and from a statement above, eastern might just want the money and if they do, what for??
will they have a case theyre doing a lot of the work getting well paid admittedly but is this f&g,s version of a non hostile take over??
[QUOTE=gsp follower;403763]
[QUOTE] That the administration staff of the Hawke’s Bay Fish and Game Council and Eastern Fish and Game Council are authorised to negotiate new and maturing term investments and make enquiries regarding all Hawke’s Bay Fish & Game Council bank accounts individually. (15/08/7.2.4) Boaler/BatesSo eastern are checking out the financials of what could be their bride...a defacto bride at that...there will be no white wedding...maturing investments of licencee monies...Quote:
waaaaat the f..k for???
imho the last thing hawkes bay needs is these eastern elitists anywhere near your region.
i dont mean the staff who do great work but i wouldnt cross the street to piss in the ear of anyone who voted in a hen pheasant season or put and take ducks.
its a short term localised cop out to not fixing whats wrong with the wild populations and a sop to the tourism industry[guides properties with special interests] and thier attracting travelling birders who need a quick setup kwi bird hunting experience:O_O:
what i hate the most is the impression it will give of us bieng just like everywhere else? after thier dough and the way it will skew thier view of our traditions and duck/upland hunting.:pissed off:
since lyons is the nzc chairman it seems them enforcing the stated nationalpolicy of no duck shooting on ''properties with'' in eastern or anywhere else is not going to happen:wtfsmilie::pissed off:
your pregnent with growing licence sales EeBees so a shotgun wedding might be in the wings given easterns stagnent sales.Quote:
o eastern are checking out the financials of what could be their bride...a defacto bride at that...there will be no white wedding...maturing investments of licencee monies.
Quote:
15 Hunting of Waterfowl on Upland Game Properties
Lindsay Lyons sought clarification of the NZ Council stance on allowing the owners of
pheasant preserves (Upland Game properties with special conditions) to privately hunt ducks
on their own pheasant preserves during the hunting season, but not during days of any
organised commercial pheasant hunts. Mr Lyons explained that he felt this would be a small
concession to make for these land owners, in recognition of the benefits that accrue to
ordinary game bird hunters from the routine escape of preserve upland game to adjoining
areas where these birds become more available to these hunters.
While it was explained that current National Policy on this matter only refers to ‘guidelines’
there was little support within the NZ Council for this proposal, given the original
understandings under which upland game preserves had first been authorized.
jesus whats the common denominator here Councillor Lyons given that its doc issueing the permits and f&g has little control except the special condition rules it seems to be giving in rather easilyQuote:
Following a spirited debate with no clear consensus on the issue it was agreed the paper from
Eastern Fish and Game Council be received with Councillor Lyons to encourage Eastern to
deal with the matter within their region as they think fit.
but telling him to do as they see fit it hardly guidence and enforcing the guidelines nzc??
Quote...
...of the benefits that accrue to ordinary game bird hunters from the routine escape of preserve upland game to adjoining areas where these birds become more available to these hunters...
we pay $92 for a licence so we can be patronised...???? ordinary game bird hunters...I take extreme umbrage at this...the idyllic notion of years gone by where hunters and gamebird shooters were not bound by elitism, patrony and vagrant hypocrisy...beam me up, Scottie...:o:wtfsmilie::pissed off:
Not a gamebird or waterfowl site, but...
Stop Feeding Waterfowl - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation