Someone just told me this is no more as the coppers have banned steel and tungsten ammo etc. Does anybody no more? He said someone at Hunting and Fishing was telling him.
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Someone just told me this is no more as the coppers have banned steel and tungsten ammo etc. Does anybody no more? He said someone at Hunting and Fishing was telling him.
@charliehorse, that is the interpretation of the laywers COLFO engaged.
COLFO sent out emails to this effect earlier today. they have written to Nash, giving him an opportunity to respond before going to judicial review
will be interesting to see where it goes.
Well that should bring a few fuds out.
Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk
jesus wept is there no bloody end to this utter stupidity.:wtfsmilie::o:roll::chop:
Gotta be deliberate because the use of steel shot over water has been in law for years. Cops are sure to be aware of that law and they will have been intimately involved in creating this latest crock. If that is not the case then ggovrrnment and police law advisors must actually be grossly incompetent and should be summararily sacked and derigestered by the lawyers disciplanary agency. The Minister of Justice (A. LITTLE) and the Chief Justice should intervene. Oh, and nappy wipes are obviously required as well.
Where's Fish&Game? Shouldnt they be leading the charge on this?
If you dont the farmers bloody will thats guaranteed. Our farmers ring and say please come and sort this ...
When you have 100 ducks in your feeders and others waiting to get in the food it aint good..
Oh but FUCKING WAIT A MINUTE... farming WILL BE BANNED SOONISH WONT IT.
Imagine the acres of Kale the greenie fuck tards could grow.
Best way to eat kale Lots of oil in your pan and it slips right off real quick into the rubbish tin
Fish and Game sent emails to licence holders last week asking for input. I have spoken to a F&G rep today and they are in process of forming a full submission. Believe me, F&G are very much on our side and deserve all our support.
I think COLFO is being a little bit clever here .
I think it is quite a jump to assume that the wording relates to steel shot and is the end of Duck season .
Headlines of “ End of Duck Shooting “ is what will get the large sector of procrastinators , deniers , and uneducated firearms owners off their fat arses and actually start doing something and hopefully start making some noise about the stupid new laws .
Finally it has started to dawn on average guy .
Yes, I think the intent of the Bill is steel cored rifle projectiles (think armour piercing) but its getting mileage as there is potential, maybe, to apply this to steel shot. F&G has openly put this on their FB page but, it appears as a bit of a dig at COLFO which again has F&G appearing to be looking at the small picture again and only supporting their guys and not all LFAO.
A few weeks ago our lawyers were looking carefully at the Police Minister’s definitions of newly prohibited ammunition. One category – termed “enhanced penetration ammunition” – likely includes all steel shot in shotgun cartridges. The definition reads: “Projectiles that have a steel or tungsten carbide penetrator intended to achieve better penetration.”
I’m no lawyer in fact I may be a criminal as I have a box or two.
But.
Im sure that steel shot is not used to infancy penetration but used because greenies wanted it, I think it reduces it effectiveness.
But well done Colfo for trying.
Legislation enacted in haste is almost always bad law.
This is yet another example of unintended consequence of poor law.
It annoys the cr#p out of me when Minister Nash says he's not listening to the gun lobby when he is.
The Police Association is one of the largest gun lobbiest - only they're anti gun, except for themselves.
really -bloody funny theres no sign of one in my inbox and i check this unit x5daily.lets also not forget F&G also were a supporter of the initial action.
GC-Id also be bloody careful in casting aspersions re firearms owners!you may find it recoils to bite you on the arse!if you want colfo's donations to keep coming in id suggest a little less of the derogatory
Well. They have challenged Minster Nash to clarify and if he does not, then Judicial Review will follow.
and here is COLFO's reply
Quote:
Dear Supporter,
Is steel shot now outlawed? Our lawyers respond to Fish & Game statement.
This afternoon Fish & Game posted a public statement responding to my email to supporters this morning – specifically rejecting our claim that steel shot is now deemed "enhanced penetration ammunition" and therefore possession of such could result in conviction and up to two years in prison.
Fish & Game claim that we (and the ACT Party’s David Seymour) are wrong in our interpretation.
We have asked our Wellington legal experts, Franks Ogilvie, to comment on the matter. They said:
“Fish & Game’s response is surprising. We wish the law was what Fish & Game claim, but it simply isn’t. It appears they have not bothered to read our letter to Police Minister Stuart Nash or sought their own legal advice. We’ve asked the Minister to change the law so that it is along the lines Fish & Game state – indeed what they say is simply repeating what the Police claim and may now wish the Order said.
Of course, for practical purposes people can take comfort they are unlikely to be prosecuted if the Police say they won’t.
But that is not the point. The law is what Parliament passes, and the Governor-General signs. Those disciplines are fundamental to the difference between the Police determining what the law of the land is (a police state), or living under the Rule of Law.
For those interested in detail, the Order has no exclusion for shotgun ammunition. It should. There is nothing confining the prohibition to rifle bullets. There should be. There is no condition that it applies only to bullets intended to penetrate armour. That restriction too should be there. Perhaps Fish & Game are confusing our concerns with the definition of ‘Multi-projectile ammunition' in the same Order (which does specifically exclude shotgun ammunition). That exclusion does not apply to the definition of ‘enhanced penetration ammunition’. That appears to be the key error Police, and the Minister, have made.
We made it plain that the Order would not have been intended to cover shotgun cartridges. We know the Police website now says it does not. But as the law is written, it does.
The point of the alert to supporters, and to the Minister, was to pick just one example of the Police making things up as they go along. On matters where the penalty is up to two years in prison, it is reasonable to expect a much higher standard. The Minister should swallow embarrassment and fix the mistakes, not have groups like Fish & Game try to defend the indefensible with misinformation.
Our respect for Police and our liberties depend on the Police being loyal servants of the law, whatever they think of it – not rulers able to decide what they want it to say.
There has been similar Police invention over the moratorium on criminal liability for possessing the (badly defined) prohibited ammunition. Police said it expired on 30 September, but that if people reported what they have, it will continue until the ammunition is collected by Police. That is not what Regulation 28Z says. As written, from 1 October all people who hold it are liable to two years in prison. The Police can’t waive that. The Order in Council is so badly written that Police have been pretending to have powers the regulation does not give them. We raised that with the Minister only indirectly, because it is not in anyone’s interests to have the criminal liability tested before the Minister has corrected the errors.
Fish & Game should apologise, and in the interests of those they claim to represent, join in COLFO's request that the Minister correct the mistakes. That way, Fish & Game's assurances would have legal backing.”
I think it is really disappointing that Fish & Game have jumped in like this, but they are probably simply relying on the Police’s assurances, something we should all be entitled to do.
But pointing out the errors, and taking-on the Government where it has, frankly, got something badly wrong, is precisely what is needed. It is why we started this campaign and have asked people to crowdfund this effort.
Fish & Game say, that "this is a time when firearms groups should be working together for the public good". We totally agree.
Thank you for your support,
looks like another strike against fish and game to me
Possibly. It looks to me that the Exec of F&G may be making statements independently of the regional offices.
You cannot rely on the what the police say, this is written law and will apply to you if its wrong, but works in their favour!! Consultation with the firearm fraternity would have helped in draughting these new laws no end!
Read into it they want it their way and fuck you!!
If its written in law it is the law
Whether the police choose to pursue it a completely different matter
You would still be breaking the law, just like with the old E-Cats by law you were the only one able to touch your rifle......
To touch someone elses E-Cat it needed to be changed into your name before you did...completely stupid...but the law is the law...
Its all well and good for Fish&Game to say they've been assured by police steel shot is ok but the way the law is written there's no clear exemption and whats to say down the track the police wont change their mind and decide steel is prohibited.
So does this mean that anyone in possession of steel shot for a shotgun is breaking the law
yeah well its all because the muppets in charge rushed everything through and tried to get absolutely everything on the coppers and anti gun wish list. Tried to be generic when it suited and specific when it suited but usually cocked it up either way.
Yes in reality steel shot from a shotgun has less range than the lead equivalent and definitely doesn't have more effective penetrative qualities at least on game.
will have to see if common-sense prevails. At least it does show to some of the fudds out there how far reaching this all is.
Whilst I did do the odd close range experiment with shotguns many moons ago (lead) it does punch big holes in things if it is still retained in the wad. I haven't done it with steel but suggest it would be similar.
STOP PRESS
Plod has now found his box of crayons and issued a denial that steel shot in 12 gauge or lead in 22 is "naughty.. Because , as sadly is becoming too common, the link in his scribble returns this....
"Page not found
The requested page "/node/58551" could not be found"
I have copied his jottings and paste them below for your delight and amusement..........
"Police confirm types of ammunition allowed for recreational hunters"
NZ Police wish to clarify that cartridges filled with steel or lead shot are not prohibited. They may still be used under the Arms (Prohibited Ammunition) Order 2019 as shotgun cartridges are specifically excluded from the prohibition order.
Duck shooters and other hunters can continue to use cartridges filled with lead or steel shot.
For more information, the order can be found here:
Arms (Prohibited Ammunition) Order 2019 (LI 2019/137) Schedule Ammunition declared prohibited ammunition – New Zealand Legislation
This week an amendment to the Firearms Prohibition order confirmed that shot cartridges fired from low calibre rimfire firearms are also not prohibited.
Often referred to as Birdshot, these cartridges are used in the killing of small pest species where the use of poison is unsafe.
Police can confirm that enhanced penetrating ammunition with a steel or tungsten carbide penetrator is prohibited as it penetrates body armour and helmets and has no legitimate civilian use.
Duck shooting cartridges do not fall within this definition.
ENDS
Issued by Police Media Centre.
You can also view this release, including any additional images, online at: http://www.police.govt.nz/node/58551
Thanks,
New Zealand Police"
STOP PRESS #2
Looks like Plod's box of crayons was a new box as this arrived 9 minutes after the first...........
Media note: A previous version of this release referred to the Firearms Prohibition Order.
This was incorrect.
It should have referred to the Arms (Prohibited Ammunition) Order.
You can also view this release, including any additional images, online at: http://www.police.govt.nz/news/relea...tional-hunters
Thanks,
New Zealand Police
Attachment 122193
Exclusion for shutgun ammunition under multi projectile ammo and sabot ammo...Still cant see one under enhanced penetrating/armor piercing ammunition.
Thanks I went to the Police site through the link and read what was there and then bounced off that and went to the link for the order 2019 and for the life of me I could not find the exclusion for shotgun cartridges they speak of. I am often accused by my missus of having domestic blindness so maybe I also have Order 2019 blindness. If you fellahs can find it let me know where it is.
Thanks I went to the Police site through the link and read what was there and then bounced off that and went to the link for the order 2019 and for the life of me I could not find the exclusion for shotgun cartridges they speak of. I am often accused by my missus of having domestic blindness so maybe I also have Order 2019 blindness. If you fellahs can find it let me know where it is. Failing that I reckon the Police are just making shit up.
i really dont think the police hierachy or the government have a clue what they are doing !
its beyond a joke and unfortunately at our expense