Thread: 3 shot groups are useless!

Well within reason that is correct.
Certainly evaluate a group for loaf purposes but as long as the first shot nissan on the mark (every time) then you are mint.
That's meant to be another game in itself isn't it? Getting the first shot on target I mean?
As for the 3 shot magazine thing I do the same for my 416. 3 shot mag with a spare up the spout.
Mind you if you haven't sorted out what ever you are shooting at in 4, it will be close enough to make 100m groups irrelevant if you can get more away

Ha...shooting benchrest, typical load dev is using 2 shot groups. if the first two are not on top of each other a 3rd one aint going to make it any smaller so move on! but thats shooting a rifle thats capable of 5 shot groups under 0.2" at 100m if you can read the wind flags.

for interest here are the results of a recent benchrest shoot at Nelson:

Date : 02/06/2024 Title: 2024 ZUPPA Shoot
Range: Nelson S.I. Class: Heavy Benchrest - I
================================================== =====================================
Name W A B C D E Agg GAgg PN

Ian S.I. 100 .246 .145 .273 .191 .086 .1882 1
O 2004 200 .399 .501 .613 .392 .293 .2198 1 .2040 1
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg S.I. 100 .195 .195 .260 .226 .289 .2330 4
C 1001 200 .575 .517 .531 .269 .373 .2265 2 .2298 2
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve N.I. 100 .273 .143 .224 .198 .170 .2016 2
B 1020 200 .600 .449 .706 .593 .348 .2696 3 .2356 3
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony S.I. 100 .277 .210 .124 .228 .190 .2058 3
T 2012 200 .544 .738 .816 .330 .700 .3128 5 .2593 4
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Helen S.I. 100 .264 .235 .368 .285 .271 .2846 6
O 2005 200 .446 .709 .409 .443 .805 .2812 4 .2829 5
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve S.I. 100 .248 .464 .204 .269 .238 .2846 7
W 2014 200 .582 .895 .489 .543 .819 .3328 6 .3087 6
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graeme S.I. 100 .349 .351 .177 .196 .278 .2702 5
S 2013 200 .761 .880 .840 .815 .468 .3764 7 .3233 7
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael S.I. 100 .846 .651 .390 .251 .711 .5698 8
K 2106 200 .628 .855 1.359 1.987 1.862 .6691 8 .6195 8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best Scores 100 | Best Scores 200
|
A G C .195 | A I O .399
B S B .143 | B S B .449
C T T .124 | C H O .409
D I O .191 | D G C .269
E I O .086 | E I O .293

SG I O .086 (Rec .068) | SG G C .269 (Rec .203)
Agg I O .1882 (Rec .1622)| Agg I O .2198 (Rec .1819)
================================================== =====================================

I sighted in a Kimber Hunter 257R over the weekend. Barrel heats up real quick so 2 and 3 shot strings are max without a cool down.

I was using a day night scope and the adjustments are back to front like when you are bore sighting. I kept forgetting that as I adjusted for elevation. So I got a vertical line of 6 shots (up down, up down ) that were perfect for windage, and the vertical shots all went exactly where they should have (but not where I wanted) given my adjustment mistakes.

I finally figured it and my last shot was spot on (1.25") high at 100. So in the end I had fired 7 spaced shots that were perfect for windage (within .25moa) and went vertically where the scope was adjusted for. That single last shot was good enough for me.

Im confident that if bulldozed into a heap the 7 shots would have represented .75moa minimum.

That, and its past history of 2 and 3 shot groups confirmed it as a pretty consistent sub MA rifle in my book.

OK, how about this scenario that isn't that unlikely . . . .

So old mate has a rifle that will do a three shot group, then heats up or otherwise goes to pot. A deer pops out at a comfortable 180M. But it's moving quite a bit. Finally it pauses but only the head is visible. Old mate confidently takes a high neck/head shot - WTF - he's not seen a wee puff of wind, or was a bit over confident and the shot has drifted a bit and the deer is running with its jaw blown off. Reload, quick shot on the run, miss then repeat miss. Now we are up to three shots, deer runs into a gully then comes out again running at 320M. It pauses but another hurried miss. Damm, down to the last round in the mag, hot barrel and difficult shot at 350M. At this point I'd prefer if my rifle would shoot a decent 5 or 10 shot group

Originally Posted by Tentman

OK, how about this scenario that isn't that unlikely . . . .

So old mate has a rifle that will do a three shot group, then heats up or otherwise goes to pot. A deer pops out at a comfortable 180M. But it's moving quite a bit. Finally it pauses but only the head is visible. Old mate confidently takes a high neck/head shot - WTF - he's not seen a wee puff of wind, or was a bit over confident and the shot has drifted a bit and the deer is running with its jaw blown off. Reload, quick shot on the run, miss then repeat miss. Now we are up to three shots, deer runs into a gully then comes out again running at 320M. It pauses but another hurried miss. Damm, down to the last round in the mag, hot barrel and difficult shot at 350M. At this point I'd prefer if my rifle would shoot a decent 5 or 10 shot group

You might be over thinking things just a tad, just get out hunting and enjoy yourself otherwise you will chew up heaps of components, be no better off and never go hunting.

Originally Posted by Tentman

OK, how about this scenario that isn't that unlikely . . . .

So old mate has a rifle that will do a three shot group, then heats up or otherwise goes to pot. A deer pops out at a comfortable 180M. But it's moving quite a bit. Finally it pauses but only the head is visible. Old mate confidently takes a high neck/head shot - WTF - he's not seen a wee puff of wind, or was a bit over confident and the shot has drifted a bit and the deer is running with its jaw blown off. Reload, quick shot on the run, miss then repeat miss. Now we are up to three shots, deer runs into a gully then comes out again running at 320M. It pauses but another hurried miss. Damm, down to the last round in the mag, hot barrel and difficult shot at 350M. At this point I'd prefer if my rifle would shoot a decent 5 or 10 shot group

in your scenario it is doomed from day one and only likely to get worse 180 metres comfortable head shot hmmm I would suggest only to a handful of shooters shot hundreds of deer and more goats I would not try it 7mm Rem Mag spot on if I cant get a zero in 3-4 shots I am looking for a cause

I don't think I can have been lucky enough in 50+ years of hunting to have had the pleasure the company of a man of your capabilities Barry.

I have seen this scenario play out twice at least, once with a jaw shot, once with a back leg. I shot the jaw one, it wasn't out of confidence but just a bloody unlucky deer that I should have clean missed - steep downhill shot with its bum to me. No followup shots were possible and it haunts me to this day.

A mate shot at a hind, dropped it but clipped another of the group behind it in the back leg. They ran into a gully followed by a couple of shots from my cobber. Out again at over 300Y steep uphill, still moving strongly. I was able to shoot it at this stage but it was good luck more than good management.

So yes, things like this can happen. I like an accurate, well zeroed rifle in my hand.

Originally Posted by Tentman

OK, how about this scenario that isn't that unlikely . . . .

So old mate has a rifle that will do a three shot group, then heats up or otherwise goes to pot. A deer pops out at a comfortable 180M. But it's moving quite a bit. Finally it pauses but only the head is visible. Old mate confidently takes a high neck/head shot - WTF - he's not seen a wee puff of wind, or was a bit over confident and the shot has drifted a bit and the deer is running with its jaw blown off. Reload, quick shot on the run, miss then repeat miss. Now we are up to three shots, deer runs into a gully then comes out again running at 320M. It pauses but another hurried miss. Damm, down to the last round in the mag, hot barrel and difficult shot at 350M. At this point I'd prefer if my rifle would shoot a decent 5 or 10 shot group

Send that last round aiming at the middle of the front end. At this point with an already wounded deer you are just trying to kill it in a shorter time than starving/dehydrating to death.
The good '3 shot group' rifle isn't going to miss a full deer at 350m even on the 10th shot if you know basic shooting fundamentals and can apply them at the time of the shot.
This senario may happen to you one day even with your good 10shot group rifle and it still might get away... Welcome to real life hunting and old 'Murphy's law'.

we can all stuff it up we just try hard not to I hate blood trailing especially when they start heading uphill and the trail shows green grass dropped out ( ask me how I know ) that feck doomed buggered feeling comes into play hate that

Stuff ups happen. Im not sure that whatever rifle you have in your hand, if you've stuffed up the first 4, then the 5th is any more likely to be good. At that stage its probably less the rifle and more the situation, pressure, stress, frustration etc.
Also its not being said that the rifles cant shoot more shoots too the same or reasonable levels of accuracy. Its the need to do so thats being questioned.

If you are using a tikka you’ve run out of rounds after 3 shots……then you think I need a sako with 5 in the mag!

Originally Posted by Ginga

If you are using a tikka you’ve run out of rounds after 3 shots……then you think I need a sako with 5 in the mag!

Just gets hot a bit slower!

Two shot kill groups.My one shot,kill shot on deer.(Green dot)
My main short range ammo(240yds max) next summer will be Hornady White Tail 165gr sp.Ssts for further.Just put small scope on my shortened 20" 308.All these shots fired on the whitetail zero.
Green dot first shot for each target.Just thru the FMJ in there for interest.10 minute cool down between each target.

Yes i could drop my zero down 1 or 2 clicks but il just leave scope alone.Could be slightly lower or higher next time at the range.No 2 visits at the range have the exact same results.

Originally Posted by Trout

Could be slightly lower or higher next time at the range.No 2 visits at the range have the exact same results.

This is exactly what you'd expect with groups composed of a small number of shots - there is inherent variability in the mean point of impact from "group" to "group" because it's unlikely that most of them accurately represent the real MPOI of the system.

Hi Gimp,didnt think it would take you long to dial in.Yes you will different group positions with different ammo and powder weights,glad you noticed. After 3 shots thru a barrel in 2 minuts,most barrels will get warm so will never shoot in the same spot.So the true POI in hunting terms is the 1st shot.Not after 10 shots on a cooked barrel.