Thread: 3 shot groups are useless!

But surely a very good 3 shot group will equate to a not so bad 5 or 10 shot group I know it does in my .223 and the Creed I had.

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Originally Posted by 25/08 IMP

But surely a very good 3 shot group will equate to a not so bad 5 or 10 shot group I know it does in my .223 and the Creed I had.

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There is a very good 3 and 5 shot group in this 10 shot group. Some days the first shots fired could be that 3 or 5 shot group clumped beautifully in the centre, other days they could be those shots numbered in the picture 1,2,6 and 10 and we’ll blame ourselves, the rifle or the wind.

Originally Posted by McNotty

There is a very good 3 and 5 shot group in this 10 shot group. Some days the first shots fired could be that 3 or 5 shot group clumped beautifully in the centre, other days they could be those shots numbered in the picture 1,2,6 and 10 and we’ll blame ourselves, the rifle or the wind.

Attachment 285809

Using your post as an example, if we are talking about hunting which one of those shots didn't kill the animal you were aiming at ?

Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Using your post as an example, if we are talking about hunting which one of those shots didn't kill the animal you were aiming at ?

None I’d say, at the ranges I shoot at.
I was just using it an example in the context of this thread

Originally Posted by 25/08 IMP

But surely a very good 3 shot group will equate to a not so bad 5 or 10 shot group I know it does in my .223 and the Creed I had.

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While its not a grantee that a great 3 shot group will be a good 10 shot group, a bad 3 shot group is never going to make a great 10 shot one.

I agree that a single (often cherry picked) 3 shot group isn't enough to make an accuracy claim about your rifle but that doesn't mean then are useless, but taken in a great context 3 shot groups can and are useful. With the regards to the video posted above, anyone who makes an accuracy claim off of bulk 22lr is bound to have cherry picked, taken in context with the velocity ES that you can assume from bulk 22lr (and shown in the video) even if you got great accuracy at close range you know it wont hold up at distance.

For load development I think there is a benefit in just doing 3, 4, or 5 shot groups in the initial phases( especially if using a chronograph), as you are looking for more than just accuracy (pressure signs, velocity range, trends/flat spots in velocity/accuracy). But you can't jut shoot a single 3 shot group that is under .5" and then claim your rifle is a 1/2moa rifle out to any distance.
Well you can claim that if you want too but you are kidding yourself.

Three shot groups are standard fair for checking zero is still ok for my hunting rifles...in fact I will go so far as to say I'm happy with TWO shots if they( as they usually do) hit target around inch or less apart..... I don't need to fire another 7-8 rounds to know that if I do my bit the rifle/ ammunition combo will hit animal where I'm aiming within my self imposed limits of 350 at absolute most and in reality 99% are under 150 away. So I contend that three shot groups are far from useless. They are in fact great. Agree if those three are shotgun splattered,your group won't shrink smaller....also agree if those three are clover leaf pattern the group will in all probability open up somewhat...not necessarily hugely.

I find any number of bullets in a group and the adjustment to bring it onto the bullseye has not been done is a waste of time on a hunting rifle.

I still think its more complex.

Ive owned quite a few rifles over the years, helped a lot of others set up theirs. A rifle that won't put 3 shots together is an indicator, the very first and highest probability one, that there is an issue. Ive only had one that performed poorly at 100 yards with 3 -10 shot groups around 3 inch, that actually held that group size out at 400. Becoming a moa capable rifle at longer ranges, which was weird.

That being said, Its totally logical that the more shots you put into a group, the larger the group will get to a point. The questions are, do we really need to know that point? and what's a reasonable number of shots to expect the average person to fire to ascertain accuracy?

These questions are coming from a person though, who tends towards thinking that there is too much emphasis on longer range anyway, and that most influence would be better pushing limiting shots to well under 500 m, where these factors will have less effect.

Last time (March 25) I took my 308 to the range and fired a 5 shot group at a 100yds after I fitted s new suppresser.Good result,2 clks right for zero.At $5 a rd,no need to fire more ammo at targets,just go hunting.Shot a few deer since,nothing has run away.Next March 26 il go back to range and shoot at same target,and see if im close to same results,but 1/2" centre right.
A year apart results will be interesting.

Three shot groups are ok for hunting rifles if you are shooting no further than 300yds.I think at 400yrds you need a little more info to be sure your on target.500yds my scope and eyes can't that far to shoot a deer.

I find three shot groups quite useful.

Depends on context IMO. Given my own recent experience, 3 shot groups show nothing useful when developing a load. 10 RND groups shows, to my mind, a useful average that indicates whether load development is moving in the right direction, ie: tightening the group, or making it worse. From there once you've got acceptable grouping (which is subjective) for the purpose the load is being developed for then, in the case of developing a hunting load, if repeated 3 shot groups (after load development) are repeating the same grouping where POI is within cooee of POA then it is confirming the loads/rifles/shooters accuracy and dependability on knocking an animal down at the ranges the shooter will be covering and that can be confirmed with shooting out to say 300m. If I'm hitting 3 rounds comfortably within a 6" gong at that distance I'm going to be confident in shooting game out to the same distance.

I'd imagine that for competitive long range shooting then the process and "acceptable grouping" may require more data in the way of larger groups and far more fine tuning of loads to achieve the tightest grouping the shooter is capable of.

Watching one of Norways video's he paints a line down the target of 30 RNDS with the majority of the impacts painting a vertical lanceolate shape on the target at I think 660 yards. I'd say that's indication of a good consistent well developed load and excellent shooting and probably reflects the type of shooting he's doing with a more rigorous grouping requirement than is required by the average hunter shooting out to average distances

Three round groups have a place amongst the process in my opinion. Yes they don't tell you everything, but they can tell you some things that you don't need to burn more ammo to know.

Originally Posted by John Duxbury

I find three shot groups quite useful.

I agree for just a quick check of zero yes 3 shot very usefull - in fact many times with my 788 Remington 308 fire one - spot on thats it why waste ammo - I just want to know its still on - If I really wanted to know how a rifle is for accuracy well then more shots sure thats common sense but just a zero check no

Originally Posted by 25/08 IMP

But surely a very good 3 shot group will equate to a not so bad 5 or 10 shot group I know it does in my .223 and the Creed I had.

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Yes I agree. A .rifle shooting a 5moa 3 shot group will very likely shoot a tighter 10 shot group than a rifle shooting a 2moa 3 shot group.

A guy I know turned up at our range on Sunday with his Hardy Hybrid 7RM. We were shooting 1000yds and he had no come-ups from his 200yd zero. Luckily I'd run it over the chrono when he was developing loads and a quick calc on the app got him on paper. It ended up shooting about 2mins of vertical and of course worse in the wind. He was more than happy given the distance.

I let him have a go with my competition gun with me dialing the knobs. I'm not that impressed with this new barrel with maybe 50 shots down it. Groups at 100 weren't that impressive for the required level of accuracy. Anyway, here's what he managed:



The group dimensions are shown top right so it's a true 1 MOA as well as being centred. Needless to say he was pretty damn happy given he'd never shot over 400yds in his life.