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Hi team,
So it's been a long while since I spent any serious time shooting and I realised after a very (rare) quick visit to the range that my technique has become incredibly poor. Now, I'm not saying that it was particularly great to start with but now.................
Anyway, aside from spending some serious time shooting, which I am struggling to find due to family and work commitments. What are some other things I can do to help work on and improve my technique?
Cheers
Nathan Foster has a very good book on shooting technique and related issues. You can buy it on his website at ballistic studies.
Check out some of member Norway's long range video's, fantastic, no bull shit video's on both shooting technique and drills. They make me think about what I am doing from the basics through to mental approach and dealing with misses etc.
Highly recommended viewing.
Dry firing seems to be recommended a lot. Haven't tried it myself
What @viper said!
Cheers
Pete
Well, it seems that Nathan Foster calls the cross brassing technic ( used by norway and many of us,with weak hand under the stock and free recoil off bipod)in his book Bullshit. NF seems an adept of the sling shooting technic over a back pack.
I have seen Norway DVD and read Nathan Foster books. It is easy to make a video to tell the public exactly what you want it to hear.( like shooting a plastic duck at 800 m in bad conditions , if you throw enough lead toward it you will eventually get it).
On the other side the credential of NF with more than 7000 head of game shot and all the shooting and reloading experience with a multitude of rifles and caliber ,make me think that he is not on the wrong path either.
So I am opening the pop corns and watching the debate :-)
Hold that Forend! I tend to agree with what he says,that is how i was taught to shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Friwi
Dumb military. They taught me all wrong.
That fella should go to every western military and teach them the right way to shoot.
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I'll send @TimeRider round to show you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheppard84
But seriously, if you can't get to the range just practice dry firing on the floor. Line up and keep looking through the scope as you squeeze the trigger. Make sure you're still lined up on the target after the 'shot'. Either that or make some YOU time, or sing out and I can come too and that would make it extended family time.
Yeh, as well as the military, people we regularly see on video eg Norway, Greg Duley etc have obviously got it wrong wrong wrong, along with all benchrest shooters (alright, not heavy recoil but same principles of consistency of hold, trigger release, follow thru), F Class shooters, free recoil shooters, by-pod shooters.Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
Springer air rifle shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer
Re reading Nathan foster book's conclusion last night, the issue is not do much with heavy rifles but with heavy recoiling light rifles .
What are you shooting ? Dry fireing pift crock.
Go to the range and start reading your flags .
Read the mirage. Pick ur moment take ur shot.
Read the elements is all i can say.
Are you shooting off a pod or bench ?
Who is dumb enough to expect good results, when trying precision shooting with a light but heavy recoil rifle, without a break or at least a suppressor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Friwi
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Dry firing at home to a target down the hallway. Take your time, breathe, concentrate, focus.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheppard84
Unfortunately most people that by a modern synthetic rifle or light weight rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
Look at for sale threads and the likes, the first question is usually how heavy is it.
Everyone that owns a rifle wants precision don't they...
Who is dumb enough to carry an anvil of a rifle on top of mountain to take just one or two shots...?Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
The brake or the suppressor makes the shooting more comfortable, but the " primary" recoil that act while the bullet is still in the barrel is the same with or with out the above accessories, and the " secondary" recoil that comes in while the gazes escape the muzzle have no influence on the bullet. It had already left the barrel. ( primary and secondary are part of the same progressive action, I just did not know how to express my idea with exact terms).
Seeing the good number of people who spend money to lighten their rig as much as they can, one has to wonder if they shoot as well or worst than before the rig diet? And if their shooting is not has good, perhaps changing the shooting form or technic might get them back to a satisfying level of accuracy.
I would suggest going along to a small bore range, its pretty cheap and usually in town , so you dont have to travel far.
You can shoot for groups and experiment with sling position or off of sand bags.
You get to do all the basics, breathing control, trigger release, recoil control.
If you dont want to spend serious time shooting thrn you wont be able to build up serious experence. So you need to review the basics and apply them as best you can.
Practice technique wih .22RF is best value for time and money. Then dry fire with your big gun. Next is a thorough ckean out check and sight iin your big gun.
We cant explain all details of technique here on a short post and it is hard to find them in print too. I ll try and set some out in a couple of posts below.
First train in the 5 classical positions:
Prone
Sitting
Kneeling
Standing (all unsupported)
Prone or bench with sandbag or bipod
(For rifle testing, sighting in and trajectory)
Then work on cunning. Getting and using rests well. You should seldom be using unsupported positions while hunting. Get a copy of Jeff Cooper's book "the art of the rifle". Always first use his advice: "If you can get closer then get closer. If you can get steadier then get steadier". This is effective shooting technique.
PRINCIPLES COMMON TO ALL RIFLE SHOOTING
Support rifle with left arm. Shouldrr elbow wrist in triangle in same vertical plane. Wrist straight under foreend.
Butt in right shoulder between clavicle and deltoid. Moderate pressure counteracted by left hand gently pulling back (different for bench rest).
Right elbow between horizontal and 45deg down.
Right hand moderate firm grip like a townies handshake. Index finger tip at 90 deg to trigger, on middle of pad. Squeeze trigger finger directly back . Gradually but steadily increase pressure for a suprise break.
Breathe steadily, fire during natural pause when breathed out. Stop only for up to 10 sec.
If time check natural point aim by looking away then look vack and see where sights are pointing. Mostly adjust aim by moving body position not by pushing rifle around.
Verify it is the correct target and safe to shoot. Concentrate. Hold it still. Aim small. Follow through.
STANDING
Benchmark: 15cm@25m
Feet shoulder width apart. About 20 -30deg from direction to target.
Left upper and lower arms each 45 deg from vertical.
Variant for target shooting: left upper arm rests on chest (if suitable body shape) body leans back at hip. Lower arm vertical. Forend balanced on fist.
KNEELING
Benchmark: 25cm@100m
Left lower leg vrttical and toe turned slightly in. Left arm upper and loer both at 45 deg to vertical, same as standing.
Left elbow triceps tendon flat area resting in knee between patella and medial head of quadriceps (see wikipedia for explanation anatomical terms but they are the most unambiguous way to describe positions).
Right knee on ground with leg 60 to 90 deg from direction of target.
Buttock weight is on right heel. Right foot can either take weight on toes (high position) or be flexed (in line with lower leg) with weight on front /top of ankle and foot on the ground (low).
Right elbow in air horiontal to 45 deg below same as standing position.
Varint for target shooting: sit on side if foot twisted flat. Considerable variation may be needed depending on the relative lengths of legs and back.
SITTING
Benchmark: 30cm@200m
Sit buttocks in ground.
Left leg towards or left of target.
Right leg about 45 to 90 deg from target.
Left elbow triceps tendon on medial side if patella . Similar to kneeling.
Right elbow resting on medial side of right knee.
Variant: crossed legs.
Variant for target shooting: left elbow hooked around knee and foreend rests under its own weight on side of arm.
Some variation depending on arm and leg length and back flexibility.
PRONE
Benchmark: 25cm@200m
Spine 20 -30 deg from direction to target.
Both elbows on ground.
Left shoulder elbow wrist also 20 -30 deg and in vertical plane.
Right elbow shoulder elbow wrist plane about 45deg from vertical, supporting body.
Right knee bent slightly, so more weight goes on left side of pelvis to ground. Lower ribs taking a little weight unless belly is large.
Both shoulders same height above ground.
Adjust aim and position by moving hips and belly forward/back and left/right pivoting around left elbow.
Variant: right leg straight.
REST AND BIPOD
Benchmark: 3cm@100m
Prone recommended because most similar to hunting. Minor differences in mean point of impact due to nit gripping with left hand are compensated by much tighter groups so this should be sed for sighting in.
Sitting at bench is also ok and is comparable to sitting and kneeling positions used hunting.
Right elbow on ground / bench as for prone. Use carpet square to avoid scraping elbow on concrete in recoil.
Left elbow on ground as for prone.
Left lower arm flat on ground and left hand at butt. Manipulate butt with hand to do fine aim.
Pressure on butt is less than unsupported positions. Slight forward pressure from shoulder to
Load bipod.
Right hand grip can be lighter. Thumb should be vertical behind tang not wrapped around pistol grip in "axe" position.
Variants: commercial bench rest, sandbag or bipod for foreend.
Rear sandbag at butt. Sand filling is most inert.
Spine straight in line with target. (Prone)
Left hand gripping foreend as for prone position.
Right hand very loose with thumb not contacting stock.
NATURAL RESTS FOR HUNTING
Improvise.
Try to base positon on a standard unsupported one.
Hold foreend wih some fingers and use pads of other fingers and palm to grip or make contact with the rest. Avoid bone on back of hand or direct rifle stock or barrel contacting the rest.
Preferred position is sitting and gripping a small tree with left hand. Next is prone over a daypack or a rock / log with clothing on top. Ideally grip the daypack with a few spare fingers. Standing and kneeling with rest have a tendency to waver from side to side so try to rest another part of your body as well as left hand.
Dont shoot before youre ready. If youve got a rest and the animal is stationary the odds are on your side.
OK mate thats it. Core principles jotted into an obscure internet thread for future reference.
Wow! And yet I am still unsure from the sparse posting from the OP what the exact problem is and what advise is most suited. Even what type of shooting the OP mostly does, or types of firearms involved. Rather than tie him in knots I have offered no advise, except to say someone with a bit of expertise needs to get aside with him at the range and evaluate/identify/discuss his issues one on one.
Yes. At the range it is only shooting off a bench. Last time I checked he only has the 308 though he was also looking at a shottie.Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer
gadget -im inclined to agree -It may be he needs another shooter wirth him to gradually work up to achieving his stated aim.plenty of constructive support and feedback as things progress may well prove effective.all this advice whilst well meaning may well be overwhelming under present circumstance. at the endof the daythough persistence and practise lay the foundations.
Reach into fridge.
Pull out beer.
Make sure beer is of correct temperature.
Open beer.
Take a long drink.
Make sure you follow through.
Reach for next beer:thumbsup:
Too right kotuku. Might have a word with my niece and arrange a trip. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by kotuku
Jeebus thats a lot more interest than I was expecting. Ill have to have a proper read through and reply over the weekend.
I think you will be very happy to see that a large segment of the new "Longrange 2" (for lack of better title) is about me tearing down my own reputation, exposing my weak sides, showing how transferable shooting skill is and lifting up other shooters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Friwi
Since I am well aware of the "duck theories", it was also deemed prudent to demonstrate the more effective/accurate during an official match. Shooting in front of three judges and an audience encouraged to film (to create unabridged versions of the shooting) was a very effective way to negate further duck theories and maintain some credibility as a shooter.
This is my technical source, it is the book I used to recover my shooting after the accident. Although everything is not relevant for a hunter (like the "last 10 seconds"), Olympic level shooters are the manifestation of technical perfection. It's not magic or special skills, it is just work routines. Ways of the Rifle 2009 (£36.00)Edinkillie Sport Services
For the record: There was nothing faked about the longrange duck shot I did for Zeiss. It was a true first shot hit. They had to do a re-take on the closeup after the shot due camera limitations.
+1 on Ways Of The Rifle. It is and has been for some time the go to book on correct positions/techniques. I got my copy locally here Books - Accessories
It is expensive but well worth the money for both learners and experienced alike.
All written by European experts.
Cheers guys thinking i might have to get the book.
looks like good reviews and i will no doubt need to rebuild my shooting technique after surgary.
Friwi makes a good point earlier, one that has been aired in other threads, but is worth repeating because few give it the consideration it deserves: if precision dramatically improves when the felt recoil is reduced by adding a brake or suppressor, then this points to shooter technique being at fault, because a brake or suppressor does not affect the inherent precision of the rifle through recoil reduction, only the ability of the shooter to place shots consistently from the lessening of felt recoil. It's an important distinction and an interesting way to assess your technique. Do groups improve with the extra hardware fitted? I always fail this test miserably and I know my technique is very average.
Actually the reduction in recoil can have a marked effect on the actual rifle as I found out. By adding one to my 223, with a very flexible stock, the reduction in flex of both the stock and whip of the barrel made a huge improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
Gadgetman, from your description of the rifle no doubt adding a suppressor improved things, but I disagree with the conclusion you have drawn, and its a generally held misconception. While the bullet is in the barrel the only influence of adding a suppressor is through the addition of mass both to the overall rifle weight and more significantly from it's placement at the end of the barrel, but not through any reduction in recoil as neither a suppressor or brake can begin to reduce recoil until the bullet has left the barrel and the influence of rifle and shooter on the impact point of the shot is past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
Bringing it back on topic I only raised this as a diagnostic tool for checking technique. Perhaps it is worth a separate thread along with the use of weighted barrel clamps.
Recoil can be reduced as recoil is a function of the rifles mass and I've yet to find an effective suppressor with zero mass. Therefore my conclusion is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
Yes, you are correct: reduction in recoil from the weight of the suppressor, but not from the suppressing action. I oversimplified my replies in an effort to keep them brief. My apologies :) I hope the distinction is now clear.
There will be some reduction also from the muzzle brake as there are gasses that pass the projectile, and in front of the projectile to start with, that will be pushed out the barrel in front of the projectile. Though these will be minimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
There is also the factor of the expanding gasses that leave the barrel after the bullet, these in effect turn the barrel into a rocket motor which forms a significant part of the recoil. This is why over bores produce more recoil as the charge is increased for relatively small velocity gains.
A suppressor catches these gasses and released them slowly.
So in effect a suppressor does not reduce total recoil but gives you a lower recoil over a longer period which is more pleasant.
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We just need to get him out and shoot some deer , that will sort it out
I think an intervention is in order.Quote:
Originally Posted by longrange308