Is it 'Cold Bore' or 'Foul Bore' ?

You see comments about 'foulers' and 'cold bore' shots, so which one really means the most ?

Does the rifle have to have a fouled bore before you start to shoot consistently, or does the barrel have to be completely cool before you take the next shot, or is it a combination of both ?

I wonder when you go hunting, do you have a perfectly clean bore and know exactly where that cold shot is going to go ? and the follow up shot, where does that go ?

Just curious to know what peoples thoughts are on the subject.

Cheers, Red.:)

keep the copper ,lose the carbon and yes you will have cold bore movement but possibly with a good barrel nothing that will make any difference to you---what distances are you shooting

A fouled barrel to me is one that has had a series of rounds thru it prior to shooting cold or hot.
A cold barrel can be fouled or clean.
Generally you will get a velocity increase after your first round thru a cold clean barrel.
For me it only effects LR. I have been lucky over the last few barrels I have to have the same MPI no matter what state the barrel is in out to 500.
I do get a velocity increase after the first clean shot that can be anywhere from 20-80fps depending on calibre.
So if I am intending to shoot beyond 500 I ensure I have fired a couple shots then chrony my next round on a cold barrel and use that velocity in my calcs to give me the best chance of a first round hit at whatever range.


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In my guns, the fouling shots are what matter ALOT more than cold barrrel.
One 223 will take 10+ rounds to even start to come close to right
308 takes 5-10
Seems like cleaning is a pain in the arse when the gun wont shoot for a while - so I avoid it usually :D

Yeah when most people say cold bore, they mean fouled bore, but dont know the difference

Chris

I leave the copper and clean out the carbon ,seams to shoot a little more consistent first to last .

Interested that El B and HTR both say leave the copper and clean the carbon.

How do you achieve this and why ? not heard of it before. . . .:wtfsmilie:

I generally find its what R93 says, always shoot LR with a fouled barrel, and get the jump with the second shot from clean. Also don't seem to get get a copper build up, so what will cause that ??

For a while now I've been cleaning very little just an oily patch to stop any rust and have been very happy with the results on the target, my reason for first trying this was because of the results F class shooters have been reporting not cleaning at all for a whole weekend shooting, they only clean when they see an opening up in group size.

I do the same. But can get thru 150-200 before cleaning and its a light run with a brush and a patch or 2 and back into it.
The joys of coating your projectiles with slippery stuff.


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Yeah, I must admit I'm nowhere as anal as I used to be with cleaning. After a shooting session I use Hoppes 9 for 3 or 4 patches, just leave the bore slightly damp and one clean dry patch thru before shooting 1 fouler. From then on things seem to flow with no problems, and I only put a slightly damp patch thru if I'm changing to loads with different powders but still have a fouling shot.
I'd still like to know how the copper fouling happens ? I've only ever had the smallest hint of blue on a patch and that was after the rifle had been left in the cupboard for some time.

Clean when it shoots bad I think is the generally consensus. My factory weatherby would go around 60-80 before it opened up a bit. Now I just oil and dry it more or less

Chris

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Originally Posted by redbang

Interested that El B and HTR both say leave the copper and clean the carbon.

How do you achieve this and why ? not heard of it before. . . .:wtfsmilie:

I generally find its what R93 says, always shoot LR with a fouled barrel, and get the jump with the second shot from clean. Also don't seem to get get a copper build up, so what will cause that ??

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copper provides stability and doesn't move around and bunch like carbon when not excessive

R93 would use HBN.
Hexagonal boron nitride

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Originally Posted by 7mmsaum

R93 would use HBN.
Hexagonal boron nitride

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Yup, HBN. Moly rooted a couple black barrels I had. As Tussock pointed out, mix it with moisture and you get a corrosion factory. They both still shot but looked like an umpa lumpa mine site.

HBN is not as slippery as moly but it can never cause any bore problems. Cleaning is a breeze as well, I have yet to have a blue patch when using a copper solvent.

whats your decrease in speed with HB -must be slightly different even to moly

I found how I clean depends on the barrel,
My kreigers I find I clean till spotless (Carbon and Copper) and it take 1 to 2 shots to come right
but my TF when match shooting I just remove carbon and a little copper after every two matches( about 24 shots), if I remove all the copper it takes around 10 shots to come right, a bit a a balancing act with the TF

My rounds march up the page as the barrel warms up (about 5mm higher per shot at 200m). The first one is always a tiny bit left (pretty good i think as far as foulers can go). Once up to a working temp it pretty much holds a stable POI on the page as long as it doesnt cool right down. A lot of a rifles behaviour in this department depends on your breaking in method (or so i've been told by my betters). I was pedantic az with this one and it seems to have payed off. Everyone seems to be able to shoot well with it

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Originally Posted by DAF

I found how I clean depends on the barrel,
My kreigers I find I clean till spotless (Carbon and Copper) and it take 1 to 2 shots to come right
but my TF when match shooting I just remove carbon and a little copper after every two matches( about 24 shots), if I remove all the copper it takes around 10 shots to come right, a bit a a balancing act with the TF

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Could you define the difference between clean and comes right in terms of group size? For the bennifit of looking at it from a hunting vs comp accuracy point.

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Originally Posted by el borracho

whats your decrease in speed with HB -must be slightly different even to moly

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Its not as slippery for want of a better word. I dont lose much at all as I use less powder to get the same speeds as moly.

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Originally Posted by sneeze

Could you define the difference between clean and comes right in terms of group size? For the bennifit of looking at it from a hunting vs comp accuracy point.

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My 308 FTR Rifle after I have cleaned to remove all carbon / copper the first shot is low and the second wont group also if I were to include in the group it would be about a 2 inch group at 100, but after that it always groups nicely mostly around 1/4 inch, my SAUM is the same where it needs from totally clean, a fouler shot before it groups nice.
My F-Class Rifle with a TF barrel, if you clean everything, it takes around 9-12 shots before I will give a consistent tight group

Cheers it was the measurement I was looking for ,its often stated as a difference but rarely defined in terms of group size. 2 inches is considerable. Im guessing there is some wiggle room in peoples definition of clean here. Have you tried anything in the bore to bring the frist shot back into the group or not bothered?

for me I just learned the quirks of my barrels and live with it, I found when in competition knowing when clean and how much to clean is all part of the challenge ;)

Yes I thought that might be the case, little point trying to find something that is better when a couple of fouling shots will give the best. A little different from a hunting point where getting the first shot back closer to the group can be quite usefull, a patch of kroil follwed by a soft dry patch gives very aceptable results for me with the first shot being hard to pick from the rest. This is from a solvent and bronze brush clean not a JB or autosol scrub .It wont win any medals but it will put plenty of meat on the table.

Been thinking about this a little lately. Cleaning the barrel after every use is something I have taken seriously. I thought getting the barrel clean for load development meant more consistency, but when you do three or more loads without cleaning that is not really correct.

I'm starting to think (hence old thread revive) perhaps leaving the barrel just with the swipe of oil/clean patch before using approach. This will be a mental challenge.

Yeah, me too. Took my bro-in-law @CamD for a hunt recently and got him set up on his first animal, a young stag at 315m TBR. His first shot was a clean miss, which could have been due to the situation and distance but he shoots bloody well at the range. Then I remembered I’d cleaned the copper after the last session with that rifle. Fortunately the stag didn’t know where the shot came from and stopped in a clearing, and Cam’s second shot was right on the money ;)

if rifle has had abuse on days hunting,it will get maybe 3-4 lightly oiled patched down bore,then put away after a good external whipedown with oily rag.... been using breakfree for years and dont do the clean pacth before use thing...
about every two years or thereabouts get all fancy and do the whole copper solvent clean....then go back to lazy couple of patches after use...as dont range shoot,purely meat/varmit hunter pin point isnt criticle for me,dont shoot past 350 so again not criticle.
have cleaning rods with spear jags across antlers in reloading room...takes but a minute to whip a couple of patches through bore,no matter how tired I am, and can then sleep, knowing bore isnt deteriating.
the rifle that just died after 32years of this treatment put 3 shots into group under an inch before my cockup...so cleaning method cant be all bad.
I cant see diference in poi between really clean/de copperfied and dirty.....

Greetings All,
Most people fall into somewhere between fastidious and lax on rifle cleaning after a few years. This is pretty much where I am. A patch with Hoppes no 9 followed by a nylon bristle brush and patches to clean with a little Hoppes left in the barrel and wiped out before the next use does it for me. From time to time they get much the same treatment with a copper solvent followed by Hoppes. My rifles don't seem to move much between and fouled but for me the first shot from a clean cold bore is what is important. Mimic the conditions you will have when hunting. I never put oil in the bore, too hard to get out. Some of the long rangers I know leave their bores uncleaned during the season.
I find the idea of barrel break in amusing. 20 years ago if you asked someone how they broke in their hunting rifle barrels you would have got a blank look at best. Some think a complicated break in procedure is essential for decent accuracy. Others think it is a conspiracy by gunsmiths to get you to wear out your barrel faster or provide another excuse if your barrel does not meet your expectations. I am somewhere in the middle on this as well. A clean every few shots at first and making sure the barrel doesn't get too hot is about it for me.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Originally Posted by Tikka7mm08

I'm starting to think (hence old thread revive) perhaps leaving the barrel just with the swipe of oil/clean patch before using approach. This will be a mental challenge.

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Yep, get rid of the carbon after each shooting sesh, but leave the copper. Once you notice your groups opening up (round count will be totally dependent on your rifle - might be as low as nine or as high as 125), then get rid of all the copper and start again.

After a light clean,1st shot is about 25mm to the right,all the rest of the shots within 15mm of bull.A deer is a big target out to 300yds so only give the tika a clean every so often.Depends on dirt, dust and rain.

For hunting purposes and with the advent of suppressors I always carry a couple of subsonic fmj loads, for possums around camp and to foul the bore prior to a long shot. Suppressor pushed into the leaf litter and mmmppf! you wouldn't here it going off from further than 5m away:cool:

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Originally Posted by fernleaf

Yep, get rid of the carbon after each shooting sesh, but leave the copper. Once you notice your groups opening up (round count will be totally dependent on your rifle - might be as low as nine or as high as 125), then get rid of all the copper and start again.

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Like anything in shooting. It’s all about consistency and is dependant on projectiles, bore condition & wear, and lots of other variables. The worst copper fouling used to occur with fmj military projectiles. Modern match bullets are completely different and I can’t remember when I last had to get the sweets solvent out. I also think many of the new chemical bore solvents are also more efficient in removing fouling than sweets and hoppes.

In good barrels I no longer clean and clean and clean and instead remove carbon with a good solvent and brass brush and then leave Collings solvent in the bore. Great stuff that and pleased to see steve is still making it..

Always scrub barrel with Hoppes No9 after use have done since I began shooting 50 years back, never had a problem with it. Don't notice much in the way of point of impact changes either. Once copper builds up a soak and scrub with K12 seems to fix it. Never oil barrel Hoppes is all that is needed.