But in my case shooting steeply uphill I hit low, and that with a TBR ??Quote:
Originally Posted by csmiffy
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But in my case shooting steeply uphill I hit low, and that with a TBR ??Quote:
Originally Posted by csmiffy
I struggled to wrap my head around it too because it does sound counter intuitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
But the bullet is not being powered so the only forces are air resistance and gravity. Gravity will pull the bullet down at the same rate whether it's going uphill or downhill. Going up at say 100m/s means after 1s you're going up at 90m/s, and going down at -100m/s means after 1s you're going down at -110m/s. The difference in either case is -10m/s.
yes indeed but it will reach downhill target earlier LOL so your curved path comes into play..if its closer than your pointblank range on level ground it will be higher still as hasnt dropped back into line of sight....but I cant work it out in head so just get closer and shoot as normal LOL.
When I use Shooter and have a shot at 700 yds +35 degrees it says up 12.8moa, when I keep everything the same but switch to -35 degrees it says up 12.6moa.
So if the shot is long enough up vs down angle can be different.
Maybe it was just a bad shot, bad load etc etc, it happens. Test rifle on range if all good don't loose any sleep over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
Two bad shots hitting same point ? Perhaps rangefinder pinged on something closer than the deer, but it look like 3 hundy. Anyway, always interesting to get others inputs and learnQuote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
Any of the above are possible, check zero on paper and if all good be forever happy :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
The slight difference you see here in predicted holds between uphill and downhill is primarily a result of the Kestrel AB engine taking into account the difference in air density across the predicted flight path of the projectile. This is only a factor in extreme situations. As mentioned by others, for 95% of NZ hunting situations, basic horizontal range should be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT_NZ
Note: you still need to account for aerodynamic jump. This and other factors such as incorrect range measurement, incorrect angle measurement, parallax, etc. could explain some of the observations where there has been a vertical delta between expected fall of shot and actual fall of shot. Some of these errors may not be the fault of the firer. For example, I have had three different LRF Binos in the mountains at one time when hunting with a party, and whilst they all provided similar distance to target, some had significant differences in measured inclination angle.
@tibo , I dont know what the intended quarry is but with a low powered cartridge as above the effective range wont be too far on a Red Stag.Quote:
Originally Posted by tibo
We need 1500 foot pounds energy and an impact velocity over 2200 fps as a safe minimum for an adult stag.
It was Col Townsend Whelan that came up with the 1000 fp, minimum but that was for Whitetail with heavy slow big cals around 1930
1500lbs? I have been reading 1200lbs and 1900fps a few time. I was planning to get a 300wsm at some stage it would be more suitable thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
Good find @Magnetite, would be interesting to take such a shot to compareQuote:
Originally Posted by Magnetite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
I'm really not going to go into this any more than there is no hard and fast rule, a lot of it depends on bullet type and construction as well as velocity and shot placment, foot pounds etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by tibo
Moa you certainly wont go wrong with those figures but they are not set in stone depending on other parameters.
I will not be drawn further on this other than to say "do your own research before experimenting on animals" (that last comment is not directed at anyone just my personal opinion) ;)
I do not advocate taking shots at ranges where bullet performance is Marginal, more than enough is always going to be better than just enough :thumbsup:
Moa Hunter. Using your figure of 1200 ft/pounds my 223 supposedly no good past 35 meters approximately. I’ll have to disagree on that one. 68 deer shot in last 10 months, ranges out to 200 meters, they all dropped on the ground.
Some use 1800fps to get reliable expansion rather than energy.
My figure was actually 1500fp not 1200fp (and a minimum impact velocity of 2200 fps) for a Red Stag. This advice is from professional hunting guides in nz and it is the LEGAL minimum in Germany: 'for Roe deer: minimum impact energy more than 1000 J at 100 m.Quote:
Originally Posted by woods223
For other ungulates: minimum calibre 6,5 mm, minimum impact energy more than
2000 J at 100 m.
So if the legal minimum is 1500 fp in a european country from where our deer came from (via england) should we not take notice of this ?
From Hungary:Calibre restrictions do not apply, and semi-automatic/repeating shotguns are permitted.
- ROE DEER Minimum striking energy at 100m: over 1000 J
- OTHER LARGE GAME Minimum striking energy at 100m: over 2500 J
the motther country can keep its rules n regulations,the ycan shove them where the sun doesnt shine..as long as the kill is clean and ethically done quickly I dont give a flying fook what a person uses.....hell I would bring back shooting waterfowl on the water....punt gun too...if you want one big bang to reach your bag limit,dont kill anything other than target species and utilise all the game..well so be it.
This energy/velocity debate is endless… Shot placement and selecting a bullet with good expansion seems more important to me.
I’d rather hit the vitals at 1000lbs or even less than flinch and miss the vital shooting a rifle that can deliver 1500lbs+. A stag with a bullet in the lung at 1000lbs will still die pretty fast from hermorragie.
I have been delaying purchasing a 300WSM for this very reason it has twice the recoil of the creedmoor.
The debate is not endless in Europe. There are minimum energy figures for a reason - humane kill. I have watched vids posted on this forum where the shooter or spotter claims a miss and I have seen a hit, but because of the low impact energy and velocity the animal runs off wounded.Quote:
Originally Posted by tibo
A friend who is an exceptional field shot ( 300 mtr standing shots no issue) as well as having been a professional guide and helicopter shooter, told me that he had started out using a 270 with 150 gr reloads cranked up for stags in the roar but it did not have enough power to flatten them, so he moved up to a 7mm rem mag which can flatten them.
I think we should bear in mind that a stag that was easy to kill in late Jan - early Feb is not the same deer at this time of year. It needs a lot more to penetrate his swollen toughened neck and shoulders
I think shot placement is more important within reason of energy/velocity
I think that this has been argued back and forth as far as it needs, you lot might just have to agree to disagree :ORLY:
Do what works, as previously mentioned Moa I'm sure if you stick to your limits you will be fine, but not all bullets are equal and some perform better at high impact velocities like your favored accubonds, copper types like barnes, sako blade and hornandy cx, but some will also penetrate perform at lower velocities like eldm's, eldx, game changers etc etc, some of us use heavier projectiles to make up for lower impact velocities, and more still use lighter harder pills to keep impact velocity high with lighter calibers. All of these used within the right parameters work, even on gigantic horney mammoth stags.
Surely you’re not going to shut down a thread on this? Let them debate, well within the rulesQuote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
I am only interested in humane ethical kills. In post #52 the following was written: 'I'm really not going to go into this any more than there is no hard and fast rule,'.Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
Now while I totally agree that projectiles need matched to the job, it cannot be said that 'there are no rules' when the countries in which Red Deer are native to, have long established humane based rules. This is true of many other game animals across the world.
Ignoring these well established minimums is to set ones self up for failure and disappointment imo. Most recreational hunters in NZ are not good enough hunters to get close and shoot a stag in the head or neck the way the professional meat hunters could and should use enough gun to match their own ability.
Long range shooting needs matched with sufficient striking energy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
Just a precision in Germany the law is to use a rifle that develop 2,000 Joules (1,475 ft/lbs) of energy at 100 meters to legally hunt red stag, there is no mention of 2,000 Joules (1,475 ft/lbs) of energy on target.
Never said I was going to shut it down :o I was merely suggesting that just maybe some people just will not agree and both had made there cases and neither was swayed. Argue away if that's what turns you on and you can do it civilly without resorting to personal attacks and childish name calling :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
Moa in NZ there are no "rules" other than you must use 223 or larger on DOC land. The "rules" you speak of are for hunting in Europe as you have stated many times, this is NZ not Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
I'm not arguing that your European "rules" are a bad view point and certainly they would see most rutting red stags killed with little fuss, however there are many many many ways to kill a stag without your 2000fps and 1500ft/lbs (or there abouts) personal and European standard.
Also noone was debating what "most hunters in NZ" where or where not capable of as far as their shooting prowess is concerned.
I have said it before and I'll say it again, I do believe that having more than enough horsepower is a good thing for rutting stags, but in NZ it is not a "rule" nor is it a magic number that means any stags shot outside of these figures will be either maimed or the bullets will simply bounce off.
As I have also previously said "do your own homework, do what works, don't experiment on animals"
Use the right projectile for the right job and stick to shooting animals at ranges within your skill set/shooting ability.
I'm done arguing I'm happy with my personal view, if the rest of you wish to go on by all means have at it, I can only repeat the same thing so many times before it becomes boring and I have more productive things to do with my time.
Ok back to the subject. If someone has access to a place where it is possible to shoot long range downhill and is keen to experiment a bit I would be keen to compare corrections given by Hornady 4DOF and Ballistic AE, other app with real shot. I understand TBR does the job but I’m curious… Hornady guys spent time and money to came up with a special recipe to comput angle I would expect they verified their science in the field.
About TBR given by rangefinder, it is interesting to read some brand like Leupold calculate TBR using algorithms more complexe than the cosine of the angle x LOS.
Attachment 220425
Whilst there are no rules as you state, we do see over and over and over members quoting 1000 fp of energy at X distance being a magic number to kill a deer. This 1000 fp is an American number for Whitetail being applied here to Red Deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
In Tibo's post, he is correct that the minimum energy is at 100 mtrs, but most deer are shot inside this distance in the forests and this is the minimum not the desired energy
In reference to my earlier post regarding 223 on deer. No photos sorry, don’t bother with them. This morning shot one 8 point stag, typical scrubby Marlborough north-bank animal, at around fifty meters. Shot top of neck/base of skull, dropped like a sack of spuds. About an hour later mate using 308 shot one in neck at about thirty meters. Shot missed bone but took out throat. Took about 30 minutes to find the bugga, made a bit of ground before he decided he was dead. As has been pointed out previously energy isn’t everything, you still got to hit in the right place. Getting back to OP, on longer shots I use StrelokPro. After validation it seems to work near enough for me and it’s easy to use. Am going to try running Ballistic AE alongside to see how they compare, uses JBM calculator so should be good. Tried Hornady app but yea/na, not on phone anymore.
