Help with diagnosis

Pretty sure I know the answer to this but thought I would consult the wisdom of the forum first.

So this rifle had been shooting sweet, was happy with accuracy and load etc. Hadn't shot anything with it in a while and hadnt checked zero but been on few hunts.

Recently got a MTN bipod so stock come off, rail fitted, reassembled and action torqued. Scope was not removed.

Got out to zero it a couple weeks back and a few shots at a hundy and few clicks across looked pretty good but then it pissed down so I bailed.

So got out again today, straight to 200m and f me what a cluster. So looking at the target below this is what happened. First 2 shots circled to the left of target, ok I thought so adjusted over 4 clicks, next shot bang on. Swt to easy. Next shot high to right bugger must of pulled that one. Next shot further to the right in that cluster, WTF. Then In frustration I fired another 4 and got that nice group.
Attachment 241077
Scratching my head a bit I took a break, and let the rifle cool right down ,pretty happy with last group but can't figure what's going on so get back into it with a couple more shots on new target and yep she's moved even further right i was aiming for the target on the left. Tried a couple over a bag no bipod and same poi.
Attachment 241078

Anyway all I can think of is the windage adjustment on scope is stuffed but keen to hear less expensive solutions?

Ignore the holes with crosses.

Parallax not set or just not very good in scope, variation in hold/tension, wind, something not sitting right in stock/bedding

What’s the scope?

Scope is a older vx3 4.5 x14 and is on replacement list when life allows.

I pondered all above but nothing makes sense as I hadn't had these issues before. Parallax was set as always, no wind, was carefully when assembling and torqued to same setting but would expect more vertical movement from this.

Take the bipod off and shoot it off some bags, the only thing you have changed is the bipod. Also check your rail mounting srews - have they gone right through the forend and touching the barrel? And have you fitted the bottom metal/mag box correctly when you put it back together, possibly pinching cos it aint quite in the right place.

what's the rifle haven't got a bit of shit under the recoil lug from taking it out of the stock?

Couple suggestions,
Where you square behind the rifle ? Would be surprised if that was enough to cause what you have posted but worth checking.

Do you shoot using the same technique consistently ? Same load on bipod, same grip etc etc.

Are you reasonably good at shooting groups ? Some people aren't but know a few that suck shooting groups but almost never muff a shot on game.

And last but to me what seems most likely, check mounts, bases, rail (if running one), ring screws and action screws.
I've had issues like this more than once and it's almost always loose screws in one or multiple of the above, even when I've been sure it wasn't or couldn't be.
Grab the scope whilst holding the rifle firmly, see if you can move it in all directions.
The suggestion about the bedding is worth looking at also, check for trapped/bound up mag box, make sure recoil lug is seated etc.


If none of that helps, could it be your hand loads ? Could you try some factory ammo to rule that out ?

Hope you get it sorted, nothing more frustrating than inconsistent accuracy. Keep us posted and good luck.

I shot the last 3 rounds off a bag and got the same POI but yes probably need to test a bit more. Rail screws are definitely not touching barrel, heaps of room.

I'll have to pull it apart and recheck everything I think.

Rifles a Rem700, 284 TF barrel in stug stock

Hi Danny, all good questions and suggestions cheers. I'll have to work through a process of elimination.

"Stock came off".

You've changed something, or the rifle is settling into a new normal in the stock.

Did you alter the bedding in any way, or to put this the not PC way are you fairly experienced with pulling rifles out of their clothes and reassembling them with all the possibilities that can go south and with the individual little issues that might affect each brand or model? I'm not being a dick there, I'm fairly high time with pulling rifles down and I still fluck it up from time to time and have to go back and work out what I ballsd up.

It is most likely that (all pride aside) you've done something to it on the reassembly process, and unless there was an issue with the scope prior to chucking it back together it's unlikely you've managed to damage it during this process (unless it's taken a fall while out of the stock or something else has gone wrong). More likely to be a mechanical issue with the bedding of the action into the stock from my experience.

Noting there you fitted a rail - I'm assuming that this was for the bipod mount? Any chance this modified the foreend tip or adjusted something in the barrel channel?

Before I can offer anything more than that what rifle make and model?

Shooting the bipod off a hard surface (like concrete) or soft surface (like grass)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobba

I shot the last 3 rounds off a bag and got the same POI but yes probably need to test a bit more. Rail screws are definitely not touching barrel, heaps of room.

I'll have to pull it apart and recheck everything I think.

Rifles a Rem700, 284 TF barrel in stug stock

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Ahh missed this post first time reading. Rem 700 shouldn't have anything too odd going on provided the action is solidly landed in the stock and the recoil lug isn't pinched or the action isn't trying to tip on something. If a trigger hanger pin isn't in the right place or the mag well or floorplate isn't happy things can be a bit wanky and the other possibility is the torque setting is higher than the stock likes and it's bending and moving on recoil.

Ideal world, with a perfect bedding job you should be able to pop things apart and reassemble by foot without much care but often things arent ideal and it does take a bit to settle back to the new normal...

Stock came off, I wonder if your getting "double grouping" due to loss of bedding? Shot 1,3,5 roughly in the same area, shots 2,and 4 somewhere else but close together. The action rocking back and forth with recoil causes this.

It can be as simple as the mag box jamming on the action
Just take it to bits when you are in a good mood and have plenty of light and time


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well still a mystery at this stage.

Checked over that nothing was obviously loose. Nope
Double checked new rail screws not able to touch barrel, Nope couple mm clearance, tried leaning on it to.
Open floor plate and checked mag box not binding, Nope can slide it up and down a bit at both ends.
Checked ring screws, nope.
Checked torque on action screws, good.
Loosened tang screw holding forend and barrel to detect movement, nope.
Removed action completly. Checked everything was clean and tidy including lug hole. All good.
Dropped action in and out of stock a few times checking fit. Good
Re-assembly checking as I go. Rifle held vertically, hand tightend screws and gave it thump on butt. Torqued front screw to 30"lbs torqued tang to 30 checking for barrel movement. Torqued front to 50 then tang.
Removed rings and scope. Checked ring to action screws. Nope all good.

Got hungry.

I know nothing to help you but one thing no-one has mentioned is the ammo. If everything else is ok that's a variable.

Identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss (right?) and I'll be missed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eat Meater

I know nothing to help you but one thing no-one has mentioned is the ammo. If everything else is ok that's a variable.

Identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss (right?) and I'll be missed.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dannyb

If none of that helps, could it be your hand loads ? Could you try some factory ammo to rule that out ?

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:yaeh am not durnk: :thumbsup:

i think Danny might have mentioned it, not sure tho.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobba

Well still a mystery at this stage.

Checked over that nothing was obviously loose. Nope
Double checked new rail screws not able to touch barrel, Nope couple mm clearance, tried leaning on it to.
Open floor plate and checked mag box not binding, Nope can slide it up and down a bit at both ends.
Checked ring screws, nope.
Checked torque on action screws, good.
Loosened tang screw holding forend and barrel to detect movement, nope.
Removed action completly. Checked everything was clean and tidy including lug hole. All good.
Dropped action in and out of stock a few times checking fit. Good
Re-assembly checking as I go. Rifle held vertically, hand tightend screws and gave it thump on butt. Torqued front screw to 30"lbs torqued tang to 30 checking for barrel movement. Torqued front to 50 then tang.
Removed rings and scope. Checked ring to action screws. Nope all good.

Got hungry.

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Greetings,
You seem to have eliminated all of the mechanical issues but two things remain. Rifles often shoot differently from a bipod than from a rest, sometimes less accurately due to being shot from a hard surface. The second thing is the nut behind the butt. Once the excitement starts when things go pear shaped our shooting technique goes out the window. For your next trip to the range take a friend. Get them to shoot the rifle and watch you shot as well. You may have developed some kinks in your technique that they will spot. The only thing that has changed is the bipod but that may have initiated some technique changes,
Regards Grandpamac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobba

Well still a mystery at this stage.

Checked over that nothing was obviously loose. Nope
Double checked new rail screws not able to touch barrel, Nope couple mm clearance, tried leaning on it to.
Open floor plate and checked mag box not binding, Nope can slide it up and down a bit at both ends.
Checked ring screws, nope.
Checked torque on action screws, good.
Loosened tang screw holding forend and barrel to detect movement, nope.
Removed action completly. Checked everything was clean and tidy including lug hole. All good.
Dropped action in and out of stock a few times checking fit. Good
Re-assembly checking as I go. Rifle held vertically, hand tightend screws and gave it thump on butt. Torqued front screw to 30"lbs torqued tang to 30 checking for barrel movement. Torqued front to 50 then tang.
Removed rings and scope. Checked ring to action screws. Nope all good.

Got hungry.

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50 I'm assuming in/lb is the torque setting for a full ali bedding block stock (HSP, Manners etc) - not sure if the stug has a full bedding block? I would be looking into that as most stocks with pillars or other bedding types normally recommend less? Unlikely to be the cause of this issue though.

Maybe time to install a different scope and see if that makes any difference ... ??

Yep, scope is my bet too.

Yep try another scope......I had a VX3 do that.....front adjust parallax went awol....! They have a lifetime warranty so not all is lost...

So the plan from here is to organize another range day with a full set of tools, new scope, chrono and a good mate who can shoot.

Will start with old scope off bags and go from there. Will chrono all shots.

I'm pretty confident in my reloads but will do a new batch to check. Factory ammo isn't a option with 284 but I really struggle to see how my loads could cause such a horizontal shift while vertically ok.

The worst part in all this chewing through my last box of 150 NBTs.

anything bothering you? some days I shoot like shit, which makes me shoot even worse once I get aggravated

horizontal is usually recoil control inconsistency, and not lining up straight behind the rifle

vertical is usually changes in grip and over monstering (letting it boot you then trying to fix the mistake in the next shot)

Have you tried bipod legs straight up & down, and then with bipod legs splayed forward?
Assuming your bipod allows the forward splay of the legs?
Some rifles don't like straight up & down legs. The forward splay can be more forgiving.

Greetings,
Just a thought. Was there any breeze while you were shooting or was it dead calm. It does not take much at 200 metres to shift the point of impact. Your initial shots may have been left due to the action having been out of the stock and your correction resulted in them being to the right after it settled. A little bit of wind may explain the last group.
GPM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
Just a thought. Was there any breeze while you were shooting or was it dead calm. It does not take much at 200 metres to shift the point of impact. Your initial shots may have been left due to the action having been out of the stock and your correction resulted in them being to the right after it settled. A little bit of wind may explain the last group.
GPM.

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Not a drop of wind GPM.

You haven’t mentioned what your firer&rifle Grouping capacity average is?

If I was discussing this with someone I was coaching, that is the first bit of information I would want to know. For example, let’s assume the shooter is extremely good, and his GC average across 20x 5 shot groups with his rifle is 30mm, then his GC @ 200m will be, at best, 60mm, and that is discounting all other variables.
Despite high expectations to shoot tight groups all day every day, the best that the (hypothetical) shooter could expect is about 2 1/2 inches at that distance. Firing groups less than 3 rounds, and making adjustments in between, and searching for other reasons why the rounds aren’t landing we’re expected, is sometimes just chasing rainbows, until the shooter can reliably put a 3-5 shot group at the same POA/POI.

I am not in any way making assumptions about the OPs ability here, I’d just like to mention that it’s the thing we often overlook when discussing these things, instead often going down a rabbit hole after a non-existent rabbit. I am guilty of it myself! And I have seen some top competition shooters do the same from time to time.

Hi there, I’ve had a similar issue with one of my lightweight tikka’s in 7mm mag. After much head scratching it turned out to be the machined plastic fixture on my suppressor.

As the thin barrel heated up the connections between the threaded barrel and the plastic over barrel fixture of the suppressor lost alignment and my shots started to wander. Mine went in the vertical direction as opposed to horizontal but it’s an easy one to check. On the day I just removed the threaded plastic insert at the back suppressor, now I always just machine the inserts (on suppressor) to give a little bit of clearance from barrel. I have assumed you are using a suppressor, if not please ignore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobba

Hi Danny, all good questions and suggestions cheers. I'll have to work through a process of elimination.

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you do seem to know what you are doing -- scope not holding windage adjustment ??? try a different scope on it as you go thru your process of elimination - does not seem to be your shooting as you are getting groups just not in right place - so scope or rifle ?? different scope on will tell you

Well all going well fingers crossed I'll have an answer by end of day. Off to mates farm shortly, it's gona be stinker hot day.

New scope was a tight fit in extra low talleys but worked out perfect for fit and eye relief.
Attachment 242044

Attachment 242045

Well we sorted the issue and turns out it was the scope. Started with old scope bore sighted and as I tried to sight it in it kept going to the right same as before. So off with that and on with the new and no issue getting it sighted in, back to 200m off the bags was not great at all but centred, the heat mirage was starting to get pretty bad but switched to bipod and got this. First cold bore shot on bull. Far from my best but I left it there as it was stinking hot, wind was coming up and I'm down to last 23 rounds.

Attachment 242073

Thankyou for the update and good on you for getting it sorted. Nothing troubles the mind like a rifle that doesn't shoot satisfactorily. In some ways it's good the issue is the scope at the fix is relatively easy. Onwards and upwards from now .....

Nice to see a good result.

Grouse, you sorted it. Not so grouse that you need to buy a new scope.

your single piece ring/base eliminates the other variable that has caught me out twice and a few other folk too.. the scope base itself is loose on rifle... because the screws are under base you dont see them or think to check them...