Ron Spoomer talks shit. He is a classic American 'Gun Writer' who doesn't compare apples to apples, conduct objective reviews or write anything original.
Just my opinion...
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Ron Spoomer talks shit. He is a classic American 'Gun Writer' who doesn't compare apples to apples, conduct objective reviews or write anything original.
Just my opinion...
Greetings Woody,
That was my thinking exactly but lacking the hands on experience I let Ron speak for himself. Thankyou for your input. It is horses for courses and the Foot pounds force or Joules is a poor indication on actual performance. For 300-BLK"'s benefit Ron was a well known hunter in Hawkes Bay and anyone who was an active hunter there in the 60's to 90's would know who he was. I would have loved to have sat down with him to talk about his early hunting days bur, regrettably, left it too late. My uncle Hector knew him well but he has gone as well.
Regards Grandpamac.
@grandpamac are you referring to this Ron? https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/about
I always assumed that anything wooped hard enough by a bullet (the huge expansion you see in those gel tests) would immediately become ruptured celled / bruised tissue and would therefore be useless to anything trying to run. I thought this bruised meat caused was the real result of hydro-static shock for want of a redundant term.
GMP is right pointing out that 'knockdown power' isn't what some understand it to be. The best example of it being debunked was the FBI report into pistol injuries - they found lethality was all about hole depth but it was largely splitting hairs IIRC
If you have ever had a darned good whack in the ribs (common in some of the situations my generation got up to in our younger days or in rough rugby) resulting in becoming "winded" you will have an inkling of hydrostatic shock.
A soft blow had no effect. Same with a long shot where range has disapated energy to have little immediate effect unless to brain or spine.
Greetings 300-BLK,
No this was a New Zealand Ron that lived in Napier up until his death. Ron Spomer is a different Ron that wrote for Handloader and Rifle a few years back. I rather enjoyed his humorous articles which used to poke fun at some of hunters odd ways. They were light weight but fun.
Regards GPM.
Ive often ponderred that and do wonder if it matters where in breathing cycle animal is when hit...eg if has just finished breathing out,and is hit.....the daylight will get in QUICKLY as next chest movement will suck air in through holes...and nothing in tank to run on...Vs lungs full and charged with O2 when hit might give some gas in tank to move off.
Greetings Micky and All,
It is not the O2 in the lungs that keeps the deer going but the O2 in the blood. A fast bleeding shot to the lungs runs the blood pressure down quickly. A slow bleeding shot to the heart results in a slower death. Bruce grant wrote a very good chapter on this called Why bullets kill. You still see the fable about a shot to the heart resulting in instant death being repeated which is why, Shearer, the debate continues.
All good fun though. Grandpamac.
Curious how long it takes for shock to set in and blood to start being redirected to the vital organs. Is this a 20min effect or faster than that?
If thats another existing thread i'll gladly take the slap with the atlantic salmon as punishment haha
Regarding the instant collapse Heart shot, there was a vid posted here a while back ( by @stug)about a South African game hunting outfit and what they had found regarding shot placement. They had Vets examine dead shot animals and found that on the rare occasion that instant collapse from a heart shot occurred it was concluded that the bullet impact had taken place at the precise timing of a heart beat sending blood to the brain - there was evidence of a brain embolism or similar rupture which had caused the collapse from the highly pressurised blood
Any where in the eye will do it. Poke em with a pointed stick if you fancy,that'll do it also.
They intend ti run in circles minus an eye.
Far to many experts out there..:)
I find his videos friendly and pleasant enough. And most importantly he dosn't appear to come across as an arrogant git. In my opinion anyway.
I think the subject of cartridges is always going to ruffle a few feathers regardless of who is presenting it.
As others have pointed out, knock down power in terms of the bullet’s kinetic energy literally knocking an animal over, is a myth. The reason an animal gets poleaxed is generally when the bullet has caused catastrophic damage to the brain, spinal column, or the autonomic plexus; it wasn’t dropped by straight out kinetic energy.
But in my mind kinetic energy is still critical for a quick kill. There’s been a bit of discussion in this thread about hydrostatic shock, temporary wound channels, and blood pressure spikes to the brain all causing immediate incapacitation, even though the bullet may not have directly hit and damaged the CNS. I’m no pathologist but this makes a lot of sense to me. If we compare a bow hunter making a clean double lung shot on a red hind at 50yd, to a rifle hunter also making a lung shot on a hind at 150yd, what is the likely outcome? In the archery scenario the arrow has arrived with minimal energy, maybe 100ftlb, but it has still inflicted massive damage to the lungs and associated blood vessels. Despite this the hind still runs 75yd until she expires from blood loss. And what of our mate with a 270 or 308 running some SSTs at a decent speed? Well the hind 150yd away has been completely flattened. The SST has arrived with over 2000ftlb of energy and caused massive damage to the lungs, and has also instantly incapacitated the hind. Was this caused by hydrostatic shock or some other mechanism? I have no idea but kinetic energy is a good thing!
look at the humble .22lr and brier rabbit
compare the weights say 2grms and 1000grms so a 500th and 1kg is a BIG rabbit
red stag...100kgs for sake of easy maths needs hit with 200grm projectile...thats grams not grains to be hit with same....
and we have all hit rabbits and had them move off before expireing...hares chest shot are a classic for the dead run...
Very much a function of where in the lungs the animal is shot though. It's a good example, but not a guaranteed outcome.
Bowhunters need to avoid the leg bones, so shoot for the "crease" or just behind, around rib #6-7 give or take. Oftentimes, this point of aim actually ends up a bit further back. The expert bowhunter wants a quartering angle so the broadhead runs diagonally forwards across the vitals, not perpendicular to the spine.
Rifle hunters often deliberately aim for the leg bones - the hilar shot for example is taught as "front line of the foreleg". Regardless, the point of impact is around rib #3-4. The lungs behind ribs 3-4 are sat right on top of and surround the aorta and autonomic plexus, where the pulmonary arteries enter the lungs (the hilar). A fragmenting bullet like the SST with 2000 ft/lb doesn't just make a hole in the lungs, it instantly depressurizes the entire body's blood supply and terminally scrambles the CNS. A good hilar shot destroys the pulmonary arteries, aorta and CNS. Bang, flop.
The rifle hunter who hits a deer around rib #7 has got a runner to deal with. When he catches up with it and guts it, he sees a dirty big hole through the rear pointy section of the lungs, and can't understand how the animal made it so far. This part of the lungs actually bleeds quite slowly.
A couple of weeks ago an acquaintance in Victoria shot a large sambar with his 9.3x64 Brenneke (285gr) from 60m. Long story about how hard the recovery was, the damn deer took off like a top fuel dragster, downhill, in thick timber. This fella makes a lot of noise about how tough sambar are, and hence the rifle - everything has to be bigger and better to take down these leviathans of the forest. But the bottom line is that he doesn't aim far enough forward, and hits them too far back. In the High Country, in winter, that's a real pain in the arse. With that amount of energy (almost 4000 ft/lb!) the animal should be poleaxed. There's only one reason why it is able to run away, even if only for 10-20 seconds - it can cover a lot of ground in that short time...
30 06 is still considered one of the very best, all-round cartridges in the US. It simply does the job and all going well, is capable of stopping anything. 7x57 falls into much the same class by all accounts. Both are relatively pleasant to shoot, which is probably another factor
There are heaps of factors. Quiet animals versus spooked etc. The adrenalin of a big red stag in the roar. Its incredible how far a 'technically-dead' animal can run sometimes. The difference in species is another. It is what it is, succesful hunters figure out what works, and get on with it. There will always be occasions that seem to defy logic, thats how it is, must be time for a coffee
The shock wave from a high velocity bullet cannot be underestimated for 'stunning' the animal which then bleeds to death and dies while laying on the ground. We have all seen a 'stunned' animal that we thought had been killed instantly, leap to its feet before the eight count and leave the ring. This 20 second link shows the shockwave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osNWIP7tg3Y
Nope. Just nope.
@Moa Hunter this article is worth a read https://www.themeateater.com/wired-t...tic-shock-real
It backs up what I’ve experienced with a 223 running a 55gr Barnes compared to a 308 with 150 SSTs
Attachment 178322
My 308 165ssts had enough knock down power at 120yds.Shot thru the sholders,dropped on the spot,didnt take one step,bang flop.Sort of surprized my self woow.He was chasing a couple of girls at 6.30am in early April 2016.My 1st roar stag.He was a big buggar to cut up,i was a bit stuffed after dealing with him.
How do people feel about "knockdown power" in large calibres such as the 300s and 338s with 200gr plus pills. You are almost guaranteed a pass through and so I ask how much every is imparted into the animal?. I know there will be a bigger hole but I do wonder exactly how efficient these cartridges are. Yes there are advantages in getting the bullet in target with less wind drift.
We have already been told in this thread of a 1.5 inch tree that got killed behind a goat. How much of the 45/70s energy was used in the animal
Very nicely shaped stag I have to say! This vid explains what happened and is well worth a quick watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_x9vR_0KM8
Just watched that MH,very good vid.What my old old uncle who is still alive in Te Anau said.Theres bugger all meat on the sholder.Smack a deer in there,the sholder blades is like the crank in yr car,its brakes up,car stops =deer stops.My best shot was on a fallow buck a few yrs ago.Dropped on the spot at 437yds.Shot thru the sholders.Love thoses 165gr ssts.
Ive not really followed this thread too much. But i Just chronographed my new 7mm08 load this morning, 162 amax, rl17 17" barrel doing 2495, that gives me 1000ftlbs at 585m, but i believe impact velocity is more important to look at when using a match bullet for hunting. Not great velocities but an es of 4 was pretty nice to see, gives me every confidence that i can cleanly take animals past 500m.
With the larger calibers I think you are better to use a light-for-caliber bullet with a thin jacket when hunting soft skinned game at medium ranges; but I’m talking 9.3mm or bigger here, proper big bores! If you had a 375H&H in the safe, a 235gr Speer would be simply devastating on anything in NZ
Also, the long range guys using heavy high BC 300s or 338s are normally using something with a pretty thin jacket that still gives good terminal performance, despite being a heavy bullet
Not having a crack at all but your post raises a matter - the commonly held belief in 1000ft lbs, Just because Col Townsend Whelan wrote years ago that a bullet needs 1000 foot lbs energy to kill a Whitetail how does that apply to a Red in NZ ? 1500 ft lb's and 2000 feet per second in my view.
Mike Tyson had an estimated punch impact of 1175 ft lb's approx. for reference. So if a bare knuckle Mike punched a stag on the shoulder, would the stag fall dead ?
nope BUT it would sure as hell be winded....and if he punched it in high neck it could possibly be knocked out....now if he poked a hole through it with say a target arrow at same time.....animal may well bleed to death BEFORE regaining mobility......so in one respect its very similar...the ONLY reason shear/pure knockdown power or "punch" is important at all is it hopefully incapacitates animal for long enough for it to die of the other effects of projectile,be that bleed out,lack of oxygen to brain or spinal severing in which case the incapacitation is already there.
In my experience/opinion there seems to be three main factors that will determine how quickly a game animal drops/expires.
1. Shot placement (no secret that cns shots drop animals like lightning and that that rear lung shots are not quick killers)
2. State of the animal when shot (is it relaxed and feeding or has it just spotted/smelled the hunter and the adrenaline is starting to flow?)
3. Energy of the projectile. When assuming lung/chest shots my experience has been that projectile energy (within reason) comes in a distant third with regards to influencing speed of the kill. I have taken deer with “marginal cartridges” through to “excessive cartridges” (375 Ruger, 45/70). I can say without any hesitation that the ones who appeared relaxed at the time the shot was taken died quickly and moved little distance (often dropped right away) irrespective of the sometimes “inadequate energy” of the cartridge used. The flip side of this is that game that was spooked or in flight mode traveled much further irrespective of the “massive” amount of foot/pounds delivered by some of the cartridges used.
fascinating study; https://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html
45/70 went through the shoulder blade , took out several ribs and shredded the internals before the ramainder of the bullet exited and took down the tree . I use the FTX rounds with the polymer tips at around 2000-2200 fps if I remember correctly . It was admittedly short range , around 25 yards .
In my experience nothing I have shot with the 338 lap mag at ranges out to around 600 mtrs with a 250 gr soft point has taken more than one step , including a large pig taken on the trot at around 150 mtrs . It didn't keep on running and had half it's lung hanging out the exit hole . It wasn't going anywhere .
fallow at 460mtrs was last animal taken with that rifle and all it did was jump up on being hit and was dead before it landed again . I know this because it landed on it's face when front legs no longer worked . Was a heart shot . All have been through and through shots . Nothing has walked or run away .
now that said I have also dropped a massive sow at 100 mtrs on the spot with a neck shot with my evil black 223 . Heart shot a small boar at 50 with same rifle and the little bastard ran off never to be seen again .....