I’ve been following Ron Spomer for a while, would appear he knows what he’s talking about, the myth surrounding the power of knockdown energy
http://https://youtu.be/BvWhX2MHzYQ
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I’ve been following Ron Spomer for a while, would appear he knows what he’s talking about, the myth surrounding the power of knockdown energy
http://https://youtu.be/BvWhX2MHzYQ
FFS this was done to death...50-60-70 years ago....think it was Matt Grant who set up a wooded box on stand with pencil attached to scribe on paper when box moved...shot box..pencil moved...put but plate on box,fired shot...pencil moved....threw cricket ball at box...and it moved the most of all.
in theory a 110grn hp from 30/06 delivers more energy than a 180 grn...but delivery in a 1" deep dinnerplate sized crater doesnt kill well.....a 1" wide 12" deep hole kills very well.
Have a read ( google) of Nathan Fosters 'Game killing fundamental's'
the difference there how much resistance there is to the projectile. If the bullet can deliver all the energy then it would move the box a lot.
Ultimately though if you fire the gun and cant knock you over then the bullet cant either. Equal and opposite reactions and all that
These were standard Winchester blunt pellets.
About 25 years ago I compared standard pellets (CAC maybe?) to the Daisy pointed hunting pellets over the chronograph, the hunting pellets were heaps slower. I reckon the "skirt" was too small and they didn't seal properly.
on the likes of rats/birds the pointed ones go straight through...the flat ones hit with a POP. Im using cheap winchester pointed ones,in the same plastic container they were in 30 years ago.....basic waisted air rifle pellets.... they kill blackbirds on back lawn fine....will get rounded ones next time. takes some time to use 500 up 1 shot at a time.
Ron Spomer has some good knowledge. Have watched a few of his videos too.
Ron spoomer is a bloody spoon.
Not even going to click the link.
Really? Did he dis the 308? :P:P:P
6.5 x 55 swede, 140gn amax. And what more do you need? :)
And Ron is a spoon.
Still haven't heard why he's a spoon.
Well if it's any consolation, I use one too as my primary hunting rifle. Each to their own.:thumbsup:
I like his stuff I don't think he's anymore of a spoon than 95% of the spoons on here.
Happy your entertained nor-west.:thumbsup:
If you read his article on scopes. you'll have to admit
Harpo did it better.
Haven't seen either of their presentations on scopes, but so be it.
Hey give Ron some credit, He's making a living doing something he loves. Could say we are the dick heads.
Watched a few, some good some average, depends where you are starting from.
my dad still talks about that articles with the bullet impact moving the box and the pencil recording how far it moved.
So must have been late 60's to late 70's.
Z
Just been googling what "spoon" means. It's supposed to be a sleeping position.
I must have watched the wrong couple of vids, I'll try and watch a few more, as I may have missed the good stuff.
projectile choice IS IMPORTANT and DOES make a difference...eg using my .223 for wallabies or hares the 50 grn Vmax/Zmax is simply outstanding...it dumps all its energy inside animal,destroys itself in process and makes big mess in a hurry...PERFECT for very thin skinned light boned critters and stops the hop quicksmartly.
for deer sized critters the 50 grn ttsx Barnes mono does opposite,it penetrates right through leaving smaller hole but a deep one.
middle ground would have to go to Hornady 55grn factory loads,and many many almost any basic cup n core loading...penertrates ok and expands ok...not huge amount of either but enough to do the job....shot placement is criticle on bigger game.....
you CAN shoot rabbits with barnes ttsx...and they will die...but if you misplace shot it may take some time.
you can shoot deer with 50grn Vmax too...but unless you in brain,neck close to spinal column or slipped in between ribs I dont like your chances of a quick clean kill
now on paper all three of those loads is identicle and have same energy and same knockdown power...reality is far from it.
Greetings Again Micky and All,
The following chapter "Why Bullets Kill" and the one after that "Efficient Game Killing" in Bruce and Matt's book is excellent giving the ins and outs of shot placement. I am a little surprised just how well this book has aged although perhaps I should not be as deer physiology has not changed at all. I think I need to add it to the read again pile.
Regards Grandpamac.
You are dead right. It does damage but there still isnt enough kinetic force to knock things over. Bit like a steel plate. yes you can make them tip over but you could do the same thing pushing them. It isnt a lot really figuratively speaking.
the heaviest of rifles like the 460 wby and up can detach retinas after only a few shots. Probably similar to getting smashed by a heavyweight boxer but if that same boxer punched a deer in the shoulder it wouldnt send it cartwheeling.
Greetings All,
Trying to compare the knockdown power of projectiles using maths can be an exercise in futility. It is relatively easy to calculate how many foot pounds force or Joules of energy a moving projectile has but calculating how this is represented in killing power is another matter altogether. There are just too many variables.
Regards Grandpamac.
Something that i haven't seen differentiated here is Foot pounds of energy and Momentum. They are not the same but get confused in the maths and in the Grants book because projectile Momentum has an equal recoil equivalent and it is momentum in the cricket ball that rocks the 'saw horse' deer. FPE from velocity is what produces the temporary wound channel and tissue disruption resulting in a shockwave that can cause instant collapse. Sustained Momentum results in penetration without the shockwave / temporary wound channel.
Greetings Moa Hunter,
I got pulled up on this once before so can't help much other than I believe that the energy transfer is through momentum. At the end of the day we need a projectile that will penetrate sufficiently to reach the vitals and sometimes enough expansion to sufficiently damage the clockwork to cause a quick death. Both of these relate to projectile construction more than to how many foot pounds force or Joules of energy it is carrying. We would be better spending our time looking at the projectile and matching it to velocity and game hunted rather than fussing over the exact energy. Micky has alluded to this previously.
Regards Grandpamac.
Knockdown power eh.... The last goat I shot with the 45/70 was knocked down , along with the 1 1/2 inch thick tree it was standing in front of...
'Nuff said ... :thumbsup:
(My daughter almost wet herself with laughter when the tree fell over )
I think that the point I wished to make has been lost, I'll try explaining in more detail. Bullets dont 'knock down' game. Sudden collapse ( unless a brain or spine shot) is caused by a disruption to the CNS - A shockwave or a bullet striking a rib and transferring disruptive shock to the spinal cord. Bullet deceleration from high velocity causes this. Big slow bullets can be high in momentum, cause great penetration and permanent wound channel but dont drop animals on the spot because there is no shockwave and temporary wound channel to 'stun' the nervous system. So still having 1000 fpe retained at some great long range but low velocity ( under 2000 - 2500fps depending on cal) will likely result in a slow kill. Answer = big bullet going fast
You should see what a 110gr .270 does (pro-hunter or GK )...little bullet , going real fast
In movies/TV a blast from a sawn-off shotgun always blows the shot person right of his feet while the shooter just stands there, I guess real world physics don’t apply in that case!:D
It looks like most people in this thread's understanding of ballistic physics is even more sketchy than the movies.
Mimms posts aside, there is some real holes in response thus far.
Also - Don't ever use Nathan Fosters book as a reference for anything. Worst example of a copy and paste of inaccurate data I have seen. Excluding most of the covid nonsense on here of course.
Besides, everyone knows its not the bullet that kills animals, its the light getting in that does it :)
I agree to an extent. A bullet is not designed to ' knock down' no matter what calibre , weight etc . It's designed to enter/penetrate and inflict internal damage . You want to knock something down use a softball bat .
But not sure I agree with your last line . The last fallow I shot with the 308 bushpig short barrel , which on paper should be around 2500 fps at muzzle , 150 gr soft points , did extreme damage and completely blew the animals chest out . It was dead before it hit the ground .
Medium bullet at lower speeds is still capable of big resultant damage . Also the mighty 45/70 is not a fast bullet but as mentioned above , does the job more than enough , as the tree will testify .
Force = mass x acceleration.
So at the other end, when the projectile gets to the animal the mass is a given, but its the amount of deceleration still to be imparted and how much of that happens in the target that counts isn't it? Which is mostly down to the capacity of the projectile to do that (its construction) along with where the projectile hits.
Ive seen what a .277 hp hornady VARMIT bullet does many times...on thin skinned wallabies the yare lightningbolts...consistant hole you could fit a 1.5ltr bottle in....Ive also seen what they do to yearling fallow...NEVER EVER AGAIN.....pudding bowl sized hole on outside of shoulder......
as I said above projectile type is a HUGE part of the equation .
Greetings All,
Here is a little story related to me by Ron. Ron was a hunter and had been most of his life starting not long after WW2. He had used a number of rifles and shot an enormous number of deer. By the time I knew him his favourite cartridge was a 30-06 in a Schultz and Larsen rifle. By the lack of remaining bluing and stock finish it had been his favourite for some time. Ron had been on a Tahr trip in the south island and had bought another Schultz and Larsen rifle in 7x61 Sharp and Hart Super. Factory cartridges used a 160 grain projectile at a claimed 3,100 fps. Speer chronographed the round at 2,929 fps. Ron took it out and shot a Sika with it. Despite a diligent attempt Ron was unable to recover any significant amount of meat. The rifle was returned to the cupboard where it still sat gleaming a decade or so later while the well worn 30-06 did the business on the deer. Regrettably I never asked Ron what loads he used in either rifle but the 7x61 loads were likely factory. Ron left us almost 15 years ago so the chance to ask him has been lost. I will leave any interpretation of the tale to others.
Regards Grandpamac.
Iv'e used both and at short range I would agree with Rons comments a out 7*61 damage. However, that cartridge was developed to provide superior bc and trajectory, wind resistance at longer ranges and its accuracy was legendary. Designed to meet higher parameters at long range.
Still, a good 30-06 with good bc 178-180 grain bullets with mv 2700'/s + is a very good hunting round. The 06 will chuck a high bc 165grain bullet using 2209 @ 2900'/s. To me it is an awesome calibre.