Muzzle brakes, Suppressors, and Accuracy

I’d like to hear views on how these devices affect our ability to shoot more accurately.

Muzzle brakes and suppressors only impact recoil once the bullet has already left the barrel. Setting aside any weight increase and modifications to barrel vibration when these are fitted, improvements in shooting seem then to exist mainly because technique changes in anticipation of a reduced level of recoil and/or change in noise

So a shooter who can maintain good technique that is independent of the level of recoil (within reason) should be able to get the same results with a bare barrel as with either of these fitted.

I shoot better groups from the bench with a suppressor or brake because my technique is poor. Any reason why this statement should not be true ? How about that the rifle set-up is more consistent shot-to-shot because of reduced disturbance from recoil ? Any thoughts please ?

For me with the magnum I had, a muzzle brake made my group size go from 4" to sub inch. Sometimes you need the brake to make it comfortable to shoot. Yet with 308, 30-06 and the like, I don't have an issue and need nothing to improve my shooting.

I think herbmeister did a study and found muzzle brakes reduce recoil more than suppressors.

You could well shoot better with suppressor or brake be ause you think you should. For a 308, I don't think it matters. For larger magnums it does.

Just what I have found anyway.

I've lost count of the number of clients who have reported improved accuracy from their rifles after installing one of my Terminator Muzzle Brakes, even on the smaller calibres like .223.

Suppressors generally will improve accuracy, especially on thinner sporter type barrels, Kimbers etc,

This probably occurs because of the increase in weight on the barrel helping with barrel harmonics & the over weight increase on the rifle will help.

Yes Greg, my shooting improved with one of Scott Trails brakes. But it all depends on the shooter and the quality of rifle.

But then I shot a 10 shot single hole group with one of his rifles without a brake. So I reckon quality of rifle means more.

Just my opinion though.

Also if there is movement in, or of, the stock then the reduction on recoil will lessen the amount of movement. Robbie Tiffen showed me the flex in the pistol grip of my plastic stocked Zastava 223. After getting a suppressor fitted the groups went from 3-4" to 1/2" at 100m. Same ammo and a number of different shooters.

A good centrefire suppressor should incorporate an internal muzzle brake. Both muzzle brakes and suppressors have the potential to improve accuracy, and over-barrel suppressors with a rear barrel bush have the most potential, especially with lighter barrelled rifles. The reason (as previous mentioned) is the dampening of barrel harmonics by the increased muzzle weight, and the rear bush provides extra dampening effect. Barrel 'whip' is the accuracy killer in most hunting rifles. This can be improved by a good bedding job, then further enhanced by a good suppressor. Whilst muzzle brakes reduce recoil, they can also increase the potential to flinch because of the increased muzzle blast. A good suppressor, correctly fitted, cures both problems.

I agree gadgetman. I'm just saying what I have found. I'm not praising my own products, just my experiences.
Suppressors now have brakes incorporated in their design so they will be more efficient than a brake alone.
I know Robbie's suppressors work well and am aware of how much h any rifle flexes on firing.

Any form of reducing recoil will improve groups.

Suppressors reduce very little physical recoil compared to a decent ported brake.

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Suppressors reduce very little physical recoil compared to a decent ported brake.

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And yours are awesome brakes:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by gundoc

A good centrefire suppressor should incorporate an internal muzzle brake.

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Originally Posted by jim160

Suppressors now have brakes incorporated in their design so they will be more efficient than a brake alone.

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Deviating off-topic somewhat I know, but these are interesting comments: could you please explain to me the physics of any enhancement in recoil reduction from having a "muzzle brake" internal to a suppressor beyond the spreading in time of the gas generated impulse with an associated reduction in intensity that is inherent to a suppressor function in standard configuration?

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Originally Posted by gundoc

A good centrefire suppressor should incorporate an internal muzzle brake. Both muzzle brakes and suppressors have the potential to improve accuracy, and over-barrel suppressors with a rear barrel bush have the most potential, especially with lighter barrelled rifles. The reason (as previous mentioned) is the dampening of barrel harmonics by the increased muzzle weight, and the rear bush provides extra dampening effect. Barrel 'whip' is the accuracy killer in most hunting rifles. This can be improved by a good bedding job, then further enhanced by a good suppressor. Whilst muzzle brakes reduce recoil, they can also increase the potential to flinch because of the increased muzzle blast. A good suppressor, correctly fitted, cures both problems.

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Interesting comments gundoc, although I am not sure I completely agree with your analysis.

All barrels "whip" or to put it differently are affected by harmonics. From the skinniest hunting barrel to the heaviest benchrest one. I've stood and watched Palma profile barrels whip around like a limp noodle :D

To me, the first port of call should be tuning the load to minimise the effect of the sine wave. I would tune the load first, and then start looking at a barrel tuner to further decrease the effects. Part of that may well be due to dampening effect by more weight up front, but it also gives you the benefit of being able to tweak loaded rounds depending on conditions on the day.

I suspect most people find increased accuracy with brakes or supressors simply because of a reduction in felt or perceived recoil...

fitting both a muzzle break. or supressor means recrowning sometimes this is the real fix in my opinion based on experience with three rifles.

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

I've lost count of the number of clients who have reported improved accuracy from their rifles after installing one of my Terminator Muzzle Brakes, even on the smaller calibres like .223.

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My familiarity with the Terminator brakes only extends to a single T2, but I think it would be fair to say that muzzle brakes on the whole - unlike suppressors - do not dampen vibration or add to overall weight to any great extent.

What this muzzle brake-specific info from KG says to me then is that even with a .223 - a calibre typically classed as having negligible recoil - shooters appear to employ better technique and so shoot better the less recoil is experienced, even if this was very little in the first place.
Re-phrasing my initial post: I'm proposing that the recoil profile is substantially the same for the time the bullet is in the barrel whether a brake is fitted or not. It is only after all opportunity for the shooter to influence the placement of the bullet has passed that the beneficial effects of a brake in reducing recoil are enjoyed! The recoil-reducing effect of a muzzle brake does not and cannot influence the shot directly. The anticipation of the brake's effect influences the shooter, the shooter's preemptive response then influences the shot. The psychology is interesting but not surprising.
If your thinking is different please tell me what & why as I haven't seen this aspect discussed before.

I have a muzzle brake on my JP AR. It is annoyingly loud but compared to other AR's I have fired, suppressed or without a brake, it is noticeably faster and easier to get a second accurate shot off.
The brake design is pretty generic on the JP. It is double baffle with parallel ports, but has a large surface area for gas to impinge on.

I would like to suppress the same barrel to form any solid conclusion as to which is better, but I suspect the break is way more efficient.

So are you trying to say that a muzzle brake or suppressor that isn't concentric and therefore not having an even gas flow around the bullet won't effect accuracy or stability? And that the air being pushed forward of the bullet as it travels down the tube and into/onto the brake/suppressor plays no part?

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Originally Posted by Puffin

Deviating off-topic somewhat I know, but these are interesting comments: could you please explain to me the physics of any enhancement in recoil reduction from having a "muzzle brake" internal to a suppressor beyond the spreading in time of the gas generated impulse with an associated reduction in intensity that is inherent to a suppressor function in standard configuration?

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The basic principle of operation in any muzzle brake (whether or not it is in a suppressor) is that a series of faces at right angles to the bore are impacted by the rapidly expanding muzzle gases, tending to push the rifle forward which counteracts the recoil to some degree. In some semi-auto actions, this forward pushing force (combined with a different gas pressure curve) can short-cycle the action and the rifle needs to tuned to function properly after suppressor installation.

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Originally Posted by ebf

Interesting comments gundoc, although I am not sure I completely agree with your analysis.

All barrels "whip" or to put it differently are affected by harmonics. From the skinniest hunting barrel to the heaviest benchrest one. I've stood and watched Palma profile barrels whip around like a limp noodle :D

To me, the first port of call should be tuning the load to minimise the effect of the sine wave. I would tune the load first, and then start looking at a barrel tuner to further decrease the effects. Part of that may well be due to dampening effect by more weight up front, but it also gives you the benefit of being able to tweak loaded rounds depending on conditions on the day.

I suspect most people find increased accuracy with brakes or supressors simply because of a reduction in felt or perceived recoil...

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Yes, muzzle brakes and suppressors are only a couple of mitigating factors in the reduction of barrel whip. Muzzle brakes can be set up with a range of adjustment which allows them to be tuned to the specific barrel (like the BOSS system). Handloads should always be developed to suit the rifle as no two rifles of the same model ever perform in an identical manner. All of these factors improve accuracy.

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Originally Posted by gundoc

The basic principle of operation in any muzzle brake (whether or not it is in a suppressor) is that a series of faces at right angles to the bore are impacted by the rapidly expanding muzzle gases, tending to push the rifle forward which counteracts the recoil to some degree.

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As soon as the gas exits the muzzle brake ports it is pushed back into the suppressor or cover mitigating any forward thrust.

I tried muzzle brake covers years ago to try to reduce noise & blast, miserable fail, so I canned the idea.

There are a number of videos on the net showing this using muzzle brakes with a suppressor or cover placed over them before & after recoil comparisons on an AR 15.

I have done a couple using bigger calibres.

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Originally Posted by Nibblet

So are you trying to say that a muzzle brake or suppressor that isn't concentric and therefore not having an even gas flow around the bullet won't effect accuracy or stability?

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Provided any offset is small - as it should be for a correctly fitted brake or suppressor - and remains the same for all shots, then my thinking is that the effect on accuracy from a slight but constant eccentricity will be negligible.

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Originally Posted by Nibblet

And that the air being pushed forward of the bullet as it travels down the tube and into/onto the brake/suppressor plays no part?

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My back of an envelope calculations found that the column of air in a 20" .308 barrel has a mass of 0.03 grams whereas typical loads for 308Win are 3 grams, so yes, again negligible.

I've read a few pieces that claim a small increase in accuracy from a suppressor because the air the bullet enters after leaving the barrel is calmer and less disturbed than it would be without the suppressor.

My quatro max is nearly done and fitted. I will be looking forward to testing it against my can on the RM. Not sure I can ever beat my last group with either mind you :)

couple of intersting articles on here about muzzle brakes and suppresers

Suppressors & Muzzle Brakes Archives - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

As an alternative I found this bolt on muzzle brake made by Hinterland shooting Supplies. Have used it on my 300wsm and now on my 260. Has decreased group sizes and recoil considerably.... But shitloads louder!

Attachment 43879

Attachment 43880

That break was designed for 105mm L118 Light gun:D

Yes, interesting between the two but one would think like all rifles, different rifles may like one better than the other. Was watching a vid on U tube before with a guy who had a tactical 7mm mag, had a muzzle brake which he liked and shot reasonable groups with it. He tried a suppressor to compare the difference, and even thou there was noticeable more recoil he shot far better groups with the suppressor than with the muzzle break.
On another side track, im thinking about getting a 7m mag myself. Will be used for open country, longer range stuff(not miles thou :D). Even thou I know a 7m mag isn't huge on recoil, the less the better so was thinking when I get one I put one of gregs T2 brakes on. The question is, will the muzzle blast and noise be a issue if im wearing hearing protection?? Is a 7m mag with a muzzle brake be extra loud or be fine using the right hearing protection or is going the suppressor way the better way to go?
As im likely to be using it only for open country I have no problem wearing plugs or muffs when using it , or when I see game.

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Originally Posted by deer243

Yes, interesting between the two but one would think like all rifles, different rifles may like one better than the other. Was watching a vid on U tube before with a guy who had a tactical 7mm mag, had a muzzle brake which he liked and shot reasonable groups with it. He tried a suppressor to compare the difference, and even thou there was noticeable more recoil he shot far better groups with the suppressor than with the muzzle break.
On another side track, im thinking about getting a 7m mag myself. Will be used for open country, longer range stuff(not miles thou :D). Even thou I know a 7m mag isn't huge on recoil, the less the better so was thinking when I get one I put one of gregs T2 brakes on. The question is, will the muzzle blast and noise be a issue if im wearing hearing protection?? Is a 7m mag with a muzzle brake be extra loud or be fine using the right hearing protection or is going the suppressor way the better way to go?
As im likely to be using it only for open country I have no problem wearing plugs or muffs when using it , or when I see game.

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There is an easy fix, come up the range sometime, I have a brake testing 7RM, suppressor, brake & ammo, you can try them out :)

Best to go out the front of the range & lie on the grass, any structures around you can change the sound & blast signatures significantly

Cheers Greg, no rush but I happy take you up on that. Just want see what if feels like with a brake, ...I buy ye a beer:)

If your hunting with a dog or others @deer243 id suggest suppressor otherwise hearing protection and muzzle break wpuld do a great job

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by ARdave

couple of intersting articles on here about muzzle brakes and suppresers

Suppressors & Muzzle Brakes Archives - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

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I wonder if the insane cost and added hassle of getting a suppressor in America has much influence on those results.
Interesting that all 100 shooters used one or the other.

The thing with the PRS competition in the USA , is that you might be using a suppressor but if the guy next to you is shooting with a muzzle brake, you still have to wear ear muffs; so if you have to wear ear muffs, you may as well shoot with a muzzle break.
Remember that is quite a dynamic type of shooting where you are carrying all the shit with you during most of the day: ounces equal pound, pounds equal pain!