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Thread: Some reasons why it often goes bad.

  1. #1
    LRP
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    Some reasons why it often goes bad.

    Accuracy is the reduction of all variables to zero. Or at least as
    close as us mortals can get them. One of these variables is where the
    muzzle points as the bullet exits relative to the line of sight. That
    pesky barreled action is like rubber; hard rubber laying on a chunk of
    wood. Smack that hard rubbery thing with something and it's gonna be
    bounced off of that piece of wood; but it ain't gonna come back down
    to exactly the same place.

    Examining the difference between a stock without epoxy bedding and one
    with epoxy bedding for the same barreled action, we note that when the
    epoxy bedded stock is used groups (scores?) are excellent. But when
    the plain stock is used, scores (groups?) are horrible. Even when the
    same ammo is used. So, there must be a reason. There is. Bedding.

    When a rifle fires, its barreled action whips and vibrates all over
    the place in every direction and various magnitudes. Such physical
    trauma results in the receiver finally settling down in a microscopically
    different place after each shot. After which it now gets to start
    the vibrating and whipping all over again when the next shot is fired.

    But that microscopically different starting point causes the barreled
    action to take off in a different direction and magnitude than before
    when the next shot is fired. This just repeats for each and every shot.

    As the muzzle points in random places for each shot due to these whips
    and vibrations, it will point at a different place relative to the line
    of sight for each shot. That is what causes groups (accuracy) to be
    less than what makes smiley faces. Barrel weight doesn't reduce this
    situation. Neither does handloads with extremely low velocity standard
    deviations. It is further aggravated by out-of-square bolt faces and
    locking lugs not making full contact. If the barrel touches part of
    the forend, that adds another accuracy-degrading element to an already
    bad situation. And the best cases, primers, powder and bullets so
    darned perfectly assembled won't help either. If the barreled action
    doesn't start from the same place for each shot, the bullets won't end
    up in the same place later.

    So, if the barreled action can be somehow returned to exactly the same
    place in the stock for each and every shot, the magnitude of those
    barrel whips and vibrations will be greatly reduced, if not practically
    eliminated. Then the only thing left is normal barreled action vibrations
    at their resonant frequency, but this can't be eliminated although it
    has virtually no effect on accuracy. Epoxy bedding was and is the
    solution.

    With the proper epoxy material being a near zero-tolerance fit to the
    receiver, there's no room for the receiver to move around in from shot
    to shot. Clearance between the receiver and the epoxy is .0001-in. or
    less. That tolerance is at all places around the receiver. With
    the correct torque on the stock screws, that receiver will go back to
    the same position with the same tension so darned repeatable from shot
    to shot that the accuracy is the equal of a barrel clamped in a machine
    rest with just the action hanging on the back end.

    Benchresters moved one step further some years ago. After expoxy bedding
    their receivers, they removed the barreled action, roughed up the bedding
    surface and the receiver, then glued the stock to the receiver. That
    made sure the barreled action started its high-on-the-Richter-Scale moves
    from exactly the same place, plus it eliminated the need to check the
    stock screw torque a few times during the shooting day.

    If one does not reduce the physical variables their own body has as part
    of the complete shooting system, they may be large enough to mask any
    improvements that have been made to the rifle and/or ammo to make the
    mechanical parts of the system a flawless performer. Sometimes, that
    does happen.

    BB

    NEXT PART FOLLOWS ON


    : .....it would seem that
    : the inaccuracy caused by the necessarily loose fit of gun to shooter
    : would overwhelm any looseness of fit in the rifle itself. Comments?
    : Explanations?

    I went through the receiver bedding stuff earlier. Now here's the
    rest of the story.

    `Bedding' a rifle to the shooter is equally as important. The rifle
    must be held with the same pressure at all its person-contact points
    just like the receiver in its stock-contact points. Here's why.....

    After the bullet starts down the bore, Newton's Law becomes a very big
    issue. The heavier the bullet, the more force needed to push it out
    the bore. Seems the pressure behind the bullet also pushes back on the
    inside of the cartridge case with about the same amount of force. As
    a .308 Win. bullet goes down the bore and arrives at the muzzle going
    about 2600 fps, the rifle has moved backwards about a tenth of an inch
    as well as tilting upwards due to the center of the buttplate being
    below the bore (hence pressure) axis. And it twists opposite the
    direction of the rifling twist. How much it moves depends on how
    firmly the rifle is being held; if tight, it won't move much at
    all.

    If the amount of shooter-holding/resistance varies from shot to shot, there
    is no way the rifle will move the same amount in the same direction as
    the bullet goes from case mouth to muzzle. Therefore, although the
    sights were dead center on the target when you heard the shot being
    fired, by the time the bullet gets out of the muzzle, its path ain't
    where you'ld like it to be.

    It takes about 3 milliseconds for a .308 bullet to go from case mouth
    to muzzle. During that time is when the rifle recoils and whips about.
    Some examples of what causes the bullet to end up striking the target
    at an undesirable place are:

    * Butt held too low in shoulder lets less mass be behind it; no shoulder
    bone behind it, just flesh. The rifle's butt slips down a bit during
    recoil which moves the muzzle end up. Bullet strikes high above call.

    Almost the same thing happens with different shoulder pressure; it
    causes vertical shot stringing.

    * Cheek pressed hard/soft on buttstock changes resistance laterally or
    vertically depending on pressure axis. Bullet will strike in any
    direction away from call.

    * Forehand held at different places with different pressure on forend;
    all kinds of pressure point/axis differences. Amount of rifle movement
    during bullet barrel time varies. Bullet strikes typically high and
    low relative to call.

    A good example is shooting prone with a sling. Once in position,
    do not move your front elbow; the one on the arm with the sling on.
    Use your other hand to adjust sights, pet dogs, throw rocks at your score
    keeper, but do not move that elbow. If it moves out of place only
    half an inch, your next shot will be one-half MOA off call; move that
    elbow one inch and the next shot will be one full MOA off call.

    * Pistol grip held differently for each shot. As the pressure applied
    to the trigger gets transferred to the stock through the hand when
    the sear releases, how that energy transfers to the stock while the
    bullet is going down the barrel adds another dimension to where the
    muzzle is when the bullet goes out. This is the main reason why light-
    pull triggers enable the best accuracy; very little energy gets moved
    into the stock and won't change muzzle position significantly. But
    those four and a half ton triggers (sorry, 4.5 pound) on service rifles
    used in competition.........no wonder it takes years and years for
    most folks to master them. Three cheers for those 2 to 8 ounce wonders.

    A good rule of thumb is to hold the pistol grip with hand pressure
    equal to the trigger pull weight; at least. With heavy triggers, you
    need to firmly grab the grip, otherwise, when a few pounds of force
    slams back against the trigger stop, that firmer grip reduces the
    amount of rifle movement the force causes.

    All of which explains why free rifles have all those adjustable `gadgets'
    all over them. Each part of the stock is adjusted to be a perfect fit
    to the shooter's body. That way, the shooter's pressure on the stock will
    be exactly the same from shot to shot.

    And for those who marvel at those tiny groups benchresters shoot, even if
    they are far back from winning anything.....well a great number of them
    shoot free recoil; the rifle just rests on sandbags, then the thumb and
    forefinger squeezes that 2-ounce trigger, the rifle goes bang and recoils
    exactly the same amount in each direction. Every single shot. There is
    no shooter contact with it except for the trigger. But that shooting
    style isn't done in other disciplines. You gotta hold onto that magnum
    you're gonna bust an elk with this fall; and that magnum moves about twice
    as much before the bullet exits.

    Rifle stocks are nothing more than an interface between the barreled action
    and the shooter. Both things on either side of the interface vibrate and
    move all over the place. If that interface is well fit to the metal at
    one end and the flesh-and-bone thing at the other end, all the variables
    of their fit will be reduced to zero; or pretty darn close that is.

    BB

    END OF QUOTED STORY

    So when someone with a powerhouse heavy-recoiling super light bangstick says it does quarter moa all day just smile and say "great".
    muaythai, 57jl, Moa Hunter and 3 others like this.

  2. #2
    Member Tussock's Avatar
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    OK. Literally everything you said was wrong. Don't take offense, because we are only talking technical points here. Its Sunday morning, so here goes.
    Quote Originally Posted by LRP View Post
    Accuracy is the reduction of all variables to zero.
    Accuracy is how "on target" you are. If you put out a 4mx4m target board, aim at the center and each round goes in one corner of the board, that is an accurate rifle. The point of aim is perfectly centered withing the group. If all four rounds landed in one hold in one corner, that is a precise rifle. If all the round land in the point of aim in one hole, that rifle is accurate and precise.
    Reduction of variables is called target shooting. If you put the rifle in a tunnel in a machine rest with electronic primers, you have removed the maximum number of variables, including the shooter. Congratulations, you have removed variables to the point of absurdity. If the only thing you touch is a 2 ounce trigger, this is similar if you want to compare it to trying to shoot a deer.


    Or at least as
    close as us mortals can get them. One of these variables is where the
    muzzle points as the bullet exits relative to the line of sight.
    Is your scope attached to your stock? I'm willing to bet your scope is on the receiver and the barrel is screwed into the receiver. If these do stay as one unit, your have a problem.

    That
    pesky barreled action is like rubber; hard rubber laying on a chunk of
    wood. Smack that hard rubbery thing with something and it's gonna be
    bounced off of that piece of wood; but it ain't gonna come back down
    to exactly the same place
    .
    This is actually all that matters in bedding. It probably is going to come back to the same place

    Examining the difference between a stock without epoxy bedding and one
    with epoxy bedding for the same barreled action, we note that when the
    epoxy bedded stock is used groups (scores?) are excellent. But when
    the plain stock is used, scores (groups?) are horrible. Even when the
    same ammo is used. So, there must be a reason. There is. Bedding.

    Lots of rifles don't give a shit about bedding. Bedding a rifle often makes not difference, especially since not all bedding is equal. I have seen honest sub inch groups from a Winchester 30-06 that when lifted off the bench nearly fell out of the stock. The action screws were not done up. Some rifles bedding changes everything, some don't give a shit. Welcome to the world of harmonics.

    When a rifle fires, its barreled action whips and vibrates all over
    the place in every direction and various magnitudes

    No it does not. Tuning a handload just harmonizes this vibration to a sweet spot for a consistent departure from the muzzle. If the action comes back to same spot in the stock (regardless of bedding) and your loads etc are consistent, then this "harmonic node" will be the same every time. See Brownings BOSS system for an attempt to control this.
    . Such physical
    trauma results in the receiver finally settling down in a microscopically
    different place after each shot. After which it now gets to start
    the vibrating and whipping all over again when the next shot is fired.

    But that microscopically different starting point causes the barreled
    action to take off in a different direction and magnitude than before
    when the next shot is fired. This just repeats for each and every shot.

    As the muzzle points in random places for each shot due to these whips
    and vibrations, it will point at a different place relative to the line
    of sight for each shot.

    Again, is your scope attached to the stock or the receiver?

    That is what causes groups (accuracy) to be
    less than what makes smiley faces. Barrel weight doesn't reduce this
    situation
    . Barrel weight is a great way to dampen harmonics.

    Neither does handloads with extremely low velocity standard
    deviations
    .
    Depends on the size of your node.
    It is further aggravated by out-of-square bolt faces and
    locking lugs not making full contact. If the barrel touches part of
    the forend, that adds another accuracy-degrading element to an already
    bad situation. And the best cases, primers, powder and bullets so
    darned perfectly assembled won't help either. If the barreled action
    doesn't start from the same place for each shot, the bullets won't end
    up in the same place later.

    This is probably for true.
    So, if the barreled action can be somehow returned to exactly the same
    place in the stock for each and every shot, the magnitude of those
    barrel whips and vibrations will be greatly reduced
    ,
    Location of the action in the stock likely has an extremely minimal influence on the magnitude. Take a ruler and pull it between your fingers. The ruler will whip back and forward, initially with a high magnitude and low frequency, as it approaches the far end the magnitude falls and the frequency increases.

    eliminated. Then the only thing left is normal barreled action vibrations
    at their resonant frequency, but this can't be eliminated although it
    has virtually no effect on accuracy
    .
    As I have already alluded to, tuning these harmonics is all we are talking about here. You can have a thin whippy barrel and it matters not a whit if everything is tuned for that repeatable departure from the muzzle.

    Epoxy bedding was and is the
    solution.

    With the proper epoxy material being a near zero-tolerance fit to the
    receiver, there's no room for the receiver to move around in from shot
    to shot. Clearance between the receiver and the epoxy is .0001-in. or
    less. That tolerance is at all places around the receiver. With
    the correct torque on the stock screws, that receiver will go back to
    the same position with the same tension so darned repeatable from shot
    to shot that the accuracy is the equal of a barrel clamped in a machine
    rest with just the action hanging on the back end.


    A machine rest has dampers on it. Try putting the action in a bench vice and see what happens.



    Benchresters moved one step further some years ago. After expoxy bedding
    their receivers, they removed the barreled action, roughed up the bedding
    surface and the receiver, then glued the stock to the receiver. That
    made sure the barreled action started its high-on-the-Richter-Scale moves
    from exactly the same place, plus it eliminated the need to check the
    stock screw torque a few times during the shooting day.

    If one does not reduce the physical variables their own body has as part
    of the complete shooting system, they may be large enough to mask any
    improvements that have been made to the rifle and/or ammo to make the
    mechanical parts of the system a flawless performer. Sometimes, that
    does happen.

    BB

    NEXT PART FOLLOWS ON


    : .....it would seem that
    : the inaccuracy caused by the necessarily loose fit of gun to shooter
    : would overwhelm any looseness of fit in the rifle itself. Comments?
    : Explanations?

    I went through the receiver bedding stuff earlier. Now here's the
    rest of the story.

    `Bedding' a rifle to the shooter is equally as important. The rifle
    must be held with the same pressure at all its person-contact points
    just like the receiver in its stock-contact points. Here's why.....

    After the bullet starts down the bore, Newton's Law becomes a very big
    issue. The heavier the bullet, the more force needed to push it out
    the bore. Seems the pressure behind the bullet also pushes back on the
    inside of the cartridge case with about the same amount of force. As
    a .308 Win. bullet goes down the bore and arrives at the muzzle going
    about 2600 fps, the rifle has moved backwards about a tenth of an inch
    as well as tilting upwards due to the center of the buttplate being
    below the bore (hence pressure) axis. And it twists opposite the
    direction of the rifling twist. How much it moves depends on how
    firmly the rifle is being held; if tight, it won't move much at
    all.


    This movement is minimal and corrected for in sighting in. It is a constant or should be if your load is right. You can shoot good groups off a field rest with a free recoiling rifle. I'm happy to demonstrate this with my hunting weight 7mm rem mag if I can avoid more scope eye scars and its only 3-5 rounds.


    If the amount of shooter-holding/resistance varies from shot to shot, there
    is no way the rifle will move the same amount in the same direction as
    the bullet goes from case mouth to muzzle. Therefore, although the
    sights were dead center on the target when you heard the shot being
    fired, by the time the bullet gets out of the muzzle, its path ain't
    where you'ld like it to be.

    Good luck with this

    It takes about 3 milliseconds for a .308 bullet to go from case mouth
    to muzzle. During that time is when the rifle recoils and whips about.
    Some examples of what causes the bullet to end up striking the target
    at an undesirable place are:

    * Butt held too low in shoulder lets less mass be behind it; no shoulder
    bone behind it, just flesh. The rifle's butt slips down a bit during
    recoil which moves the muzzle end up. Bullet strikes high above call.

    Almost the same thing happens with different shoulder pressure; it
    causes vertical shot stringing.

    * Cheek pressed hard/soft on buttstock changes resistance laterally or
    vertically depending on pressure axis. Bullet will strike in any
    direction away from call.

    * Forehand held at different places with different pressure on forend;
    all kinds of pressure point/axis differences. Amount of rifle movement
    during bullet barrel time varies. Bullet strikes typically high and
    low relative to call.

    All of the above is better explained by harmonics. If you practice natural point of aim and the cross hairs rest naturally on the target, without any strain in any muscles, it is possible to shoot the rifles potential from awkward field rests. Any tension in your body will transfer to the rifle. If you are completely relaxed, you are like the dampers in the machine rest

    A good example is shooting prone with a sling. Once in position,
    do not move your front elbow; the one on the arm with the sling on.
    Use your other hand to adjust sights, pet dogs, throw rocks at your score
    keeper, but do not move that elbow. If it moves out of place only
    half an inch, your next shot will be one-half MOA off call; move that
    elbow one inch and the next shot will be one full MOA off call
    .

    Natural point of aim. Don't hold on the target, align your entire body. Your control over the rifle is an illusion, your muscles don't fire at the speed of a gun. You will lose control of it if you are trying to control it.

    * Pistol grip held differently for each shot. As the pressure applied
    to the trigger gets transferred to the stock through the hand when
    the sear releases, how that energy transfers to the stock while the
    bullet is going down the barrel adds another dimension to where the
    muzzle is when the bullet goes out. This is the main reason why light-
    pull triggers enable the best accuracy; very little energy gets moved
    into the stock and won't change muzzle position significantly. But
    those four and a half ton triggers (sorry, 4.5 pound) on service rifles
    used in competition.........no wonder it takes years and years for
    most folks to master them. Three cheers for those 2 to 8 ounce wonders.

    A good rule of thumb is to hold the pistol grip with hand pressure
    equal to the trigger pull weight; at least. With heavy triggers, you
    need to firmly grab the grip, otherwise, when a few pounds of force
    slams back against the trigger stop, that firmer grip reduces the
    amount of rifle movement the force causes.


    All of which explains why free rifles have all those adjustable `gadgets'
    all over them. Each part of the stock is adjusted to be a perfect fit
    to the shooter's body. That way, the shooter's pressure on the stock will
    be exactly the same from shot to shot.

    All true, but not explained by controlling the whip of the barrel and action, only harmonizing it

    And for those who marvel at those tiny groups benchresters shoot, even if
    they are far back from winning anything.....well a great number of them
    shoot free recoil; the rifle just rests on sandbags, then the thumb and
    forefinger squeezes that 2-ounce trigger, the rifle goes bang and recoils
    exactly the same amount in each direction. Every single shot. There is
    no shooter contact with it except for the trigger. But that shooting
    style isn't done in other disciplines. You gotta hold onto that magnum
    you're gonna bust an elk with this fall; and that magnum moves about twice
    as much before the bullet exits.

    Rifle stocks are nothing more than an interface between the barreled action
    and the shooter. Both things on either side of the interface vibrate and
    move all over the place. If that interface is well fit to the metal at
    one end and the flesh-and-bone thing at the other end, [COLOR="#FF0000"]all the variables
    of their fit will be reduced to zero[/COLOR
    In order to reduce the variables to zero, both the rifle and the shooter need to vanish. You can't reduce all the variables. Just get rid of unnecessary ones while tuning the important ones. A lot of people remove relevant variables from their shooting in practice then wonder why they struggle when all those variables return in the field. If you have not practiced dealing with a variable, you can't manage it.

    or pretty darn close that is.

    BB

    END OF QUOTED STORY

    So when someone with a powerhouse heavy-recoiling super light bangstick says it does quarter moa all day just smile and say "great"
    People do this as a matter of routine. The weight of the rifle is irrelevant for accuracy and precision, it simply amplifies the need for the shooter to their part as a shooters errors will have more effect when transferred to a rifle with lesser mass. The world is now full of light weight bug hole shooting magnums and people who fire them at small targets a long way away from field rests
    .
    Mr Browning likes this.
    The last Boy Scout

  3. #3
    LRP
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    It aint about who's right or wrong Tussock. It's about what happens in a real world situation. Competitions are good places to start. Maybe look at what ACTUAL group sizes are being shot in LR matches ? Trust me, I know they are NOT like the "routine" groups I read about on the internet. Litz is a guy who knows a bit about shooting. He knows and writes about "internet" accuracy. Just keep it real mate.
    People getting out there and being right into the accuracy buzz is very cool and it has generated a lot of enthusiasm and sales. But lets not be telling porkies.

  4. #4
    Member Tussock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRP View Post
    It aint about who's right or wrong Tussock. It's about what happens in a real world situation. Competitions are good places to start. Maybe look at what ACTUAL group sizes are being shot in LR matches ? Trust me, I know they are NOT like the "routine" groups I read about on the internet. Litz is a guy who knows a bit about shooting. He knows and writes about "internet" accuracy. Just keep it real mate.
    People getting out there and being right into the accuracy buzz is very cool and it has generated a lot of enthusiasm and sales. But lets not be telling porkies.
    Porkies is where you create a whole bunch of your own definitions. I defined accuracy at the start, as per science textbooks as it relates to shooting. I would be surprised if you are Brian Litz. He does write about internet shooting I am sure. I'm just not sure what a bunch of stuff you made up about bedding has to do with Brian Litz and the random movements of barrels has to do with him?

    I'm also a bit vague as to why we should accept a bunch of made up stuff about bench rest shooting, as it pertains to field shooting.

    Can you actual counter any of my points in the same fashion I countered all yours? Or did you come to this forum to dredge up old myths?

    I would suggest you wrote stuff that you don't fully understand and assumed we had not heard it all before and debated it till the cows come home.

    You need an argument. "F-class groups are small" is not an argument. I'm suggesting that the long list of stuff you wrote has absolutely nothing to do with why F-class groups are small.
    The last Boy Scout

  5. #5
    Member Walker's Avatar
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    You must be bored and feeling quarrelsome today Tussock! the most important thing is the first couple of milli seconds after the firing pin hits the primer and how the action and barrel react to the rapid rise in pressure. For the shooter, YOU WILL BLINK in those milli seconds so how will you see if your cross hairs have moved?
    mikee likes this.

  6. #6
    Member Tussock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walker View Post
    You must be bored and feeling quarrelsome today Tussock! the most important thing is the first couple of milli seconds after the firing pin hits the primer and how the action and barrel react to the rapid rise in pressure. For the shooter, YOU WILL BLINK in those milli seconds so how will you see if your cross hairs have moved?
    Bored yes, quarrelsome maybe hovering around my default level
    The last Boy Scout

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    Name:  70457F8B-5E12-4577-A452-6F0E14B6EAC6.jpeg
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    Photos please, this is 5 of mine.
    mikee likes this.
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  8. #8
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    LRP thankyou for posting that...its a pretty good explanation of why bedding is important and correct holding of rifle is equally important particually on a light weight heavy recoiling rig. Tussock...what is funny is that in a strange way you are agreeing with what LRP has posted...... hanging on properly /same way each time =the same thing...its like the whole bipod thing some camps say left hand goes to right shoulder,others still hold forend,others again just use a back pack...different strokes,all three methods rely on shooter doing the same thing each time for repeatable consistancy....

    to the average punter reading the above thread..it wont matter a hoot who is more correct....you both saying same thing,just slightly different way of saying/explaining it.

  9. #9
    Member Tussock's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying you can hold the rifle all kinds of ways, Any contorted position you like. Hes also saying lightweight magnums don't group.
    The last Boy Scout

  10. #10
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    I enjoyed the post. The OP gives good reminder of to be consistent in shouldering firearms.

    A good jacket/vest with substantial shoulder pad(s) to rest the stock against helps to avoid developing the dreaded flinch. Once your shoulder is sore you just try and shoulder it different ways to spread the hurt.... bad.

    I'd add to the article - since we have an argument with precision vs accuracy - that for hunting (and not everyone hunts of course) the accuracy/precision that matters is not group sizes, but where the first, cold-barrel, shot impacts.
    sako75, 57jl and Micky Duck like this.

  11. #11
    Member Tussock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordite View Post
    I enjoyed the post. The OP gives good reminder of to be consistent in shouldering firearms.

    A good jacket/vest with substantial shoulder pad(s) to rest the stock against helps to avoid developing the dreaded flinch. Once your shoulder is sore you just try and shoulder it different ways to spread the hurt.... bad.

    I'd add to the article - since we have an argument with precision vs accuracy - that for hunting (and not everyone hunts of course) the accuracy/precision that matters is not group sizes, but where the first, cold-barrel, shot impacts.
    .
    The last Boy Scout

  12. #12
    Member Mr Browning's Avatar
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    I'll give Tussocks first post a like just for the effort put in responding.

    I know what it takes to write a lengthily reply and try and make it sound how you think to avoid it being misinterpreted.

    Cheers
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    The reason I posted a photo of one of my load development groups is that it’s all very good knowing the theory but it’s the human element that I think makes the biggest difference with a hunting gun. All I know is the more I learn the more I need to learn. I’m keen to see something from @Tussock and @LRP that more than theory.
    Moa Hunter likes this.
    Remember the 7 Ps; Pryor Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

  14. #14
    LRP
    LRP is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2post View Post
    The reason I posted a photo of one of my load development groups is that its all very good knowing the theory but its the human element that I think makes the biggest difference with a hunting gun. All I know is the more I learn the more I need to learn. Im keen to see something from @Tussock and @LRP that more than theory.
    No pressure haha. I better do something now ..... " when the flag drops the BS stops".

  15. #15
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    No pressure we all know a picture speaks a thousand words. Ha.
    I can add that the gun that shot that group puts the Fowler in the middle of the group. Happy days.
    Remember the 7 Ps; Pryor Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

 

 

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