Thread: .303 Tank crew carbine

Originally Posted by Cordite

What new law, @Wingman?

OAL is now measured from the butt to the end of the rifling, no longer acceptable to have a welded/pinned/loctited on muzzle brake/extension/suppressor.
It was challenged in court recently with the new legistation being clarified that OAL must be measured to the end of the barrels rifling.
Turns out we are fit and propper enough to own a rifle 762mm long but an instant criminal with bank robbing tendencies at 761mm long.
The reality of it is quite ridiculous. The common crim will hacksaw off any firearm to what ever concealable length they desire not giving a dam about F/A legistation.

Trying to make sense of our laws is a pointless past time and even more so now the police can have laws changed at whim with their uninformed, inexperienced and unprofessional opinions via order of council.

Originally Posted by Wingman

OAL is now measured from the butt to the end of the rifling, no longer acceptable to have a welded/pinned/loctited on muzzle brake/extension/suppressor.
It was challenged in court recently with the new legistation being clarified that OAL must be measured to the end of the barrels rifling.
Turns out we are fit and propper enough to own a rifle 762mm long but an instant criminal with bank robbing tendencies at 761mm long.
The reality of it is quite ridiculous. The common crim will hacksaw off any firearm to what ever concealable length they desire not giving a dam about F/A legistation.

Trying to make sense of our laws is a pointless past time and even more so now the police can have laws changed at whim with their uninformed, inexperienced and unprofessional opinions via order of council.

So….long butt and thick butt-plate it is then?

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

So….long butt and thick butt-plate it is then?

I'm more worried about counterbored barrels. Need to go down and check...

Originally Posted by Wingman

OAL is now measured from the butt to the end of the rifling, no longer acceptable to have a welded/pinned/loctited on muzzle brake/extension/suppressor.
It was challenged in court recently with the new legistation being clarified that OAL must be measured to the end of the barrels rifling.
Turns out we are fit and propper enough to own a rifle 762mm long but an instant criminal with bank robbing tendencies at 761mm long.
The reality of it is quite ridiculous. The common crim will hacksaw off any firearm to what ever concealable length they desire not giving a dam about F/A legistation.

Trying to make sense of our laws is a pointless past time and even more so now the police can have laws changed at whim with their uninformed, inexperienced and unprofessional opinions via order of council.

Do you have a reference or date for that decision? This is quite important as the method of measuring the overall length of a firearm had already been established in a court case many years ago. The term 'overall length' has been established as 'the longest physical dimension' and that measurement is usually from the muzzle to the toe of the stock (not necessarily parallel to the bore). It is important to note the 'muzzle' is not always the end of the barrel but the part where the bullet exits the firearm. That includes parts of the firearm that are in the original design and not readily removeable without tools and/or specialised knowledge. The law has not changed and the current Arms Act, Section 2, Interpretation, states; pistol means a firearm (other than a prohibited firearm or restricted weapon) that is designed or adapted to be held and fired with 1 hand, and includes any firearm (other than a prohibited firearm or restricted weapon) that is less than 762 millimetres in length.

Originally Posted by gundoc

Do you have a reference or date for that decision? This is quite important as the method of measuring the overall length of a firearm had already been established in a court case many years ago. The term 'overall length' has been established as 'the longest physical dimension' and that measurement is usually from the muzzle to the toe of the stock (not necessarily parallel to the bore). It is important to note the 'muzzle' is not always the end of the barrel but the part where the bullet exits the firearm. That includes parts of the firearm that are in the original design and not readily removeable without tools and/or specialised knowledge. The law has not changed and the current Arms Act, Section 2, Interpretation, states; pistol means a firearm (other than a prohibited firearm or restricted weapon) that is designed or adapted to be held and fired with 1 hand, and includes any firearm (other than a prohibited firearm or restricted weapon) that is less than 762 millimetres in length.

After some searching on this topic I found heated discussion about it being 'Police policy' not legistation, and links to the police official decision on their website has since been removed.

Check these links on the bottom of this page and the last page of this thread.

https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-policy-again/

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....62/index5.html

I also found a letter of legal opinion from Nicholas Taylor so this policy may have been challenged post the court case that the accused was found guilty. Its a pdf so I cant share it here but it comes up in google.

I cant see any changes made to the arms act so I think just maybe the policy never got traction.
Interestingly my arms officer relayed this method of measuring oal to me so I will go back to him and ask for the reference to actual law stating this.

Great news if they pulled their heads in as I can make a much better Delisle suppressor with the shorter barrels

Originally Posted by gundoc

Do you have a reference or date for that decision? This is quite important as the method of measuring the overall length of a firearm had already been established in a court case many years ago. The term 'overall length' has been established as 'the longest physical dimension' and that measurement is usually from the muzzle to the toe of the stock (not necessarily parallel to the bore). It is important to note the 'muzzle' is not always the end of the barrel but the part where the bullet exits the firearm. That includes parts of the firearm that are in the original design and not readily removeable without tools and/or specialised knowledge. The law has not changed and the current Arms Act, Section 2, Interpretation, states; pistol means a firearm (other than a prohibited firearm or restricted weapon) that is designed or adapted to be held and fired with 1 hand, and includes any firearm (other than a prohibited firearm or restricted weapon) that is less than 762 millimetres in length.

I think that is "aimed" at Kea guns, but also means the Franchi SPAS-12 is a pistol --- if fitted with that curvy thingame on the stock that allow you to train it one-handed.

Cool, great job!

I bet it’s LOUD?

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

Cool, great job!

I bet it’s LOUD?

Yes I wont be firing it from inside my tank...

You are one talented person, That looks awesome. Can't wait to hear what it shoots like

That's a thing of beauty mate. Well done.

Loving both builds!

Your method of holding the suppressor together with a modified Delisle design is excellent.

How are you planning on mounting and indexing the suppressor to the receiver?

Also did you bore out and re-rifle 303 barrels?

Originally Posted by canross

Loving both builds!

Your method of holding the suppressor together with a modified Delisle design is excellent.

How are you planning on mounting and indexing the suppressor to the receiver?

Also did you bore out and re-rifle 303 barrels?

The suppressors are held on the same way as the originals, they have a retaining nut on the barrel knox that compresses the rear plug against the action and there is a single bolt below that that screws from the front of the plug into a new threaded hole the actions lower lug which indexes it and stops it rotating. The outer tube is indexed between the front cap and rear plug with pins to keep the alignment at both ends. Two long rods are threaded into the rear plug that run forward through all the baffles set apart with spacers and tensioned through the front cap with two special allen head nuts to hold the whole assembly together. (Yet to make them but the cap screws I have in the pics look similar)

For the age of the design it was really quite clever, the rearward venting shrouded barrel ports that create an intial vacuume inside the suppressor with the 8 small vent holes in the front equaling the same total diameter as the muzzle exit nozzle which suck air in as the muzzle vents out. The front baffles have a cut in the top with half folded forward and the other half folded back which creates a spiraling vortex effect disrupting and slowing the outgoing gasses further.

The barrels are some of Johns fine vulcan .452" 1-16 twist .45acp barrels. I decided to use his stainless barrels for ease of machining, bore finish and longevity. The suppressors are made from 2014 T6 51 (aka Duralium) like the originals with a 6061 T6 alloy 2" outer tube. All parts will be hard anodized and ceracoated in matt black or Socom blue to finish which will help protect the alloy against corrosion.

Originally Posted by Wingman

The suppressors are held on the same way as the originals, they have a retaining nut on the barrel knox that compresses the rear plug against the action and there is a single bolt below that that screws from the front of the plug into a new threaded hole the actions lower lug which indexes it and stops it rotating. The outer tube is indexed between the front cap and rear plug with pins to keep the alignment at both ends. Two long rods are threaded into the rear plug that run forward through all the baffles set apart with spacers and tensioned through the front cap with two special allen head nuts to hold the whole assembly together. (Yet to make them but the cap screws I have in the pics look similar)

For the age of the design it was really quite clever, the rearward venting shrouded barrel ports that create an intial vacuume inside the suppressor with the 8 small vent holes in the front equaling the same total diameter as the muzzle exit nozzle which suck air in as the muzzle vents out. The front baffles have a cut in the top with half folded forward and the other half folded back which creates a spiraling vortex effect disrupting and slowing the outgoing gasses further.

The barrels are some of Johns fine vulcan .452" 1-16 twist .45acp barrels. I decided to use his stainless barrels for ease of machining, bore finish and longevity. The suppressors are made from 2014 T6 51 (aka Duralium) like the originals with a 6061 T6 alloy 2" outer tube. All parts will be hard anodized and ceracoated in matt black or Socom blue to finish which will help protect the alloy against corrosion.

Well that's just clever. I've never seen a detail of the rear plug on an original delisle, so wasn't sure how they managed to keep everything mounted and indexed. Never knew that about the initial vacuum and pressure balancing... thank you for explaining it!

Nice work, looks like it shrunk in the wash.

That looks awesome I wish I had the ability to make alloy end caps for the 410 version I made, I had to weld them from fits of flat bar and exhaust tube , I didnt think of indexing the rear cap to the action lug, I just made an aluminum crush washer