Thread: FIREARMS REGISTER: A very interesting conundrum.

I recently purchased a Smith and Wesson revolver, ex- NZ Police (the handgun that preceded the Glock in their armoury). The advertisement displayed the "serial number" (let's say it is 78******). Got the Permit to Possess, using that number, and completed the deal. When the firearm arrived, that number above, was rather crudely engraved on the grip backstrap. Smith and Wesson traditionally place the S/n on the bottom of the grip frame. When I checked that location, there was a different number to the one above. The Police had drilled through the correct S/n in order to fit a lanyard ring. I suspect the 78****** number is a Police identification marking put there when that batch of revolvers was received. So, when I take the firearm in for the AO to verify the "serial number" it's going to be an interesting conversation...so which number do I put on the new register? Confusing..?

Further to this, I have, like a lot of you, been dealing with Arms Officers for many decades. They have nearly always been serving police officers, or retired officers, and most have had an active interest in firearms (collectors, shooters, hunters, etc) and were generally knowledgeable and pro-firearms. I noticed on the Police website recently, adverts for AOs positions, and some are being taken up by civilians with no police background or interest in firearms seemingly a requirement. One I know has come from overseas with a background in IT consultancy. Interesting times ahead...

So summarising, the Police had modified the firearm and in the process had destroyed the serial number so gave the firearm another identity. This sounds like it has a ring of familiarity to it. Isn’t preventing that sort of malarkey one of the intentions of the register? Oh this is going to be such a fun sandwich (Rushy speak for fuck up)!

Friend of mine got a phone call from an Arms Officer from another district - Do you still own XXXXX Pistol ??. Yes I do. Is it still in your possession - Yes it is, Why. We have just had a person Register XXXXX Pistol with exactly the same Serial Number as yours. Oh Dear.

Originally Posted by BSA

Friend of mine got a phone call from an Arms Officer from another district - Do you still own XXXXX Pistol ??. Yes I do. Is it still in your possession - Yes it is, Why. We have just had a person Register XXXXX Pistol with exactly the same Serial Number as yours. Oh Dear.

I'd put money on that arms officer shaking his head and hoping that they drop this madness.
But it's always those at the coal face that have to deal with rubbish systems dreamed up on a whiteboard with rubbish development and implementation.
Then the project manager just walks away and the consultants and software developer has taken the money and stop answering phone calls.

Originally Posted by Ranger 888

I recently purchased a Smith and Wesson revolver, ex- NZ Police (the handgun that preceded the Glock in their armoury). The advertisement displayed the "serial number" (let's say it is 78******). Got the Permit to Possess, using that number, and completed the deal. When the firearm arrived, that number above, was rather crudely engraved on the grip backstrap. Smith and Wesson traditionally place the S/n on the bottom of the grip frame. When I checked that location, there was a different number to the one above. The Police had drilled through the correct S/n in order to fit a lanyard ring. I suspect the 78****** number is a Police identification marking put there when that batch of revolvers was received. So, when I take the firearm in for the AO to verify the "serial number" it's going to be an interesting conversation...so which number do I put on the new register? Confusing..?

Interesting times ahead...

NZ Police knowingly (partly) destroyed the serial number of a firearm? Ain't that just wonderful. Absolute numpties. Almost equates to taking to the serial number with the proverbial angle-grinder.

Originally Posted by Ned

.......Then the project manager just walks away and the consultants and software developer has taken the money and stop answering phone calls.

A bit like the new traffic and parking system in Taupo.

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that an example of what led to the last register being disassembled by police ?

To many inaccuracies, combined with false or misleading data that was to expensive and difficult to rectify?

Let’s say hypothetically the there is 1000 items to be registered, what if the first third are inaccurate data (ie people not knowing what is the correct number to give, or just guessing, or providing incomplete or incorrect didgits)

The next third is false or misleading data (people will do this intentionally)

The last third is the massive number of guns that don’t have or no longer have visible serials (and no doubt it will end up being #1 or something daft getting stamped where we will see repeating serials

Then you get another 1000 items added, that either get entered correctly, or are not entered at all.

If it’s getting bad data from the get go En mass which I’m sure it will, they will have lost the race before even Turing the car on.


One would think if there is a high rate of inaccuracy consistently and from the start, they will either bleed dry of cash and admit defeat, or we are about to witness the biggest gross misuse of public funds NZ has ever seen.

The definition of insanity is trying to do the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome.

Originally Posted by Billymavs

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that an example of what led to the last register being disassembled by police ?

To many inaccuracies, combined with false or misleading data that was to expensive and difficult to rectify?

Let’s say hypothetically the there is 1000 items to be registered, what if the first third are inaccurate data (ie people not knowing what is the correct number to give, or just guessing, or providing incomplete or incorrect didgits)

The next third is false or misleading data (people will do this intentionally)

The last third is the massive number of guns that don’t have or no longer have visible serials (and no doubt it will end up being #1 or something daft getting stamped where we will see repeating serials

Then you get another 1000 items added, that either get entered correctly, or are not entered at all.

If it’s getting bad data from the get go En mass which I’m sure it will, they will have lost the race before even Turing the car on.


One would think if there is a high rate of inaccuracy consistently and from the start, they will either bleed dry of cash and admit defeat, or we are about to witness the biggest gross misuse of public funds NZ has ever seen.

The definition of insanity is trying to do the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome.

You just described the multi billion dollar hole that was Canadas attempted registry.....Your last line pretty much sums up this govt in a sentence...

The federal government has resurrected the long-abandoned $1-billion long-gun registry through two Orders in Council, effective May 18, 2022.23

Conundrum?
While I have shared my distrust and dislike of the registry concept openly.
I find the issue posed here is so trivial it's humorous and if it isn't trivial in the new system it should be made a trivial issue quickly.
A comment field for free text added to the record as well as serial #. This would render this circumstance a non-issue with an accompanying note "Original serial number on bottom of grip frame obscured by previous modifications. Registered serial number engraved on back strap."

We don't need to come up with pearl clutching false panic to criticise the registry. Also it stands to reason a lot of the staff won't be people experienced in firearms, the last thing I want is a retired cop acting as an Arms Officer designing, building, and maintaining the IT infrastructure for the registry!

There are no further avenues currently for providing feedback or submission on the registry therefore we are all in the same boat of waiting to see how it is implemented in reality.
Until we see it there's no point criticising it on made up scenarios we think will be a problem. It just sounds like complaining for the point of complaining.

Originally Posted by Makros

Conundrum?
While I have shared my distrust and dislike of the registry concept openly.
I find the issue posed here is so trivial it's humorous and if it isn't trivial in the new system it should be made a trivial issue quickly.
A comment field for free text added to the record as well as serial #. This would render this circumstance a non-issue with an accompanying note "Original serial number on bottom of grip frame obscured by previous modifications. Registered serial number engraved on back strap."

We don't need to come up with pearl clutching false panic to criticise the registry. Also it stands to reason a lot of the staff won't be people experienced in firearms, the last thing I want is a retired cop acting as an Arms Officer designing, building, and maintaining the IT infrastructure for the registry!

There are no further avenues currently for providing feedback or submission on the registry therefore we are all in the same boat of waiting to see how it is implemented in reality.
Until we see it there's no point criticising it on made up scenarios we think will be a problem. It just sounds like complaining for the point of complaining.

Given the scale of this operation, combined with the sheer number of police staff and FAL holders involved, I think it's inevitable that these small oddities will add up. I have very little faith that any free text field would solve anything. The minute you leave something open to human interpretation you're adding in yet more inconsistencies and potential for problems. This might work with the local shop down the road, but this is a different beast.

Originally Posted by Makros

Conundrum?
While I have shared my distrust and dislike of the registry concept openly.
I find the issue posed here is so trivial it's humorous and if it isn't trivial in the new system it should be made a trivial issue quickly.
A comment field for free text added to the record as well as serial #. This would render this circumstance a non-issue with an accompanying note "Original serial number on bottom of grip frame obscured by previous modifications. Registered serial number engraved on back strap."

We don't need to come up with pearl clutching false panic to criticise the registry. Also it stands to reason a lot of the staff won't be people experienced in firearms, the last thing I want is a retired cop acting as an Arms Officer designing, building, and maintaining the IT infrastructure for the registry!

There are no further avenues currently for providing feedback or submission on the registry therefore we are all in the same boat of waiting to see how it is implemented in reality.
Until we see it there's no point criticising it on made up scenarios we think will be a problem. It just sounds like complaining for the point of complaining.

I wasn't complaining...I'm simply highlighting the irony of Police themselves contributing to a potential error in serial number validation; the key to the success of the entire register issue.

Originally Posted by Makros

Conundrum?
While I have shared my distrust and dislike of the registry concept openly.
I find the issue posed here is so trivial it's humorous and if it isn't trivial in the new system it should be made a trivial issue quickly.
A comment field for free text added to the record as well as serial #. This would render this circumstance a non-issue with an accompanying note "Original serial number on bottom of grip frame obscured by previous modifications. Registered serial number engraved on back strap."

We don't need to come up with pearl clutching false panic to criticise the registry. Also it stands to reason a lot of the staff won't be people experienced in firearms, the last thing I want is a retired cop acting as an Arms Officer designing, building, and maintaining the IT infrastructure for the registry!

There are no further avenues currently for providing feedback or submission on the registry therefore we are all in the same boat of waiting to see how it is implemented in reality.
Until we see it there's no point criticising it on made up scenarios we think will be a problem. It just sounds like complaining for the point of complaining.

Any registry the popo have touched has turned to poo.
They dumped the last registry as it was over 60% incorrect and so expensive and needed huge man hrs to maintain.
They couldn't get the ECat registry correct.
The BCat registry is fraught with issues.
I can guarantee anything they will touch will turn to poos.
They need to have the administration taken away so they ONLY deal with policing.

Originally Posted by BSA

Friend of mine got a phone call from an Arms Officer from another district - Do you still own XXXXX Pistol ??. Yes I do. Is it still in your possession - Yes it is, Why. We have just had a person Register XXXXX Pistol with exactly the same Serial Number as yours. Oh Dear.

Then think about things like Lee Enfield rifles, each manufacturer of No1MkIII variants used a repeating format of a letter prefix followed by four digit number. Each block of a letter gave you 10,000 odd rifles, every 26 blocks they started back at 'A' and continued on. In the height of the war they repeated these letter blocks two or three times a year, so it's quite likely to find two rifles from the same factory in the same year with the same serial number. Combined with that, they used the number on the barrel as the master number (barrel being the hardest component to make) and renumbered the action bodies to the new barrel number when it was replaced. It's not uncommon to see multiple barrel numbers on an action, I had one with 5 on it at one stage. Nowadays we use the action as the master part so in theory all of those 5 numbers are legit serial numbers.

And then think about everything that isn't serialled in Arabic or English - Russian, Turkish, Syrian, Hebrew, Siamese, Chinese, Japanese - even Australian if I'm not feeling kind. It's going to be a little difficult to enter those in on a standard keyboard I'd say.

They need to have the administration taken away so they ONLY deal with policing.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that