Thread: Firearms security

Originally Posted by crnkin

It has always confused me when I hear this from people,

How, if your A cat storage is designed to stop the opportunistic burglar, does storing your bolt separately stop them from finding a rifle with no bolt (after breaking in to a safe no less), and then finding your bolt? Burglars aren't as stupid as 'hunters', in general. I know where most people store their bolts (not locked).

that would mean:

a- If they managed to get into the safe they probably are not an opportunistic burglar so therefore your damned either way.
b- If they are stealing a rifle they don't have a licence, but a bolt requires no licence to buy? Sure, they cost a lot, but they are crims, they can afford it or just nick one.
c- you join the 50% (made up number) of people that have lost their bolt, because they store it separately, usually unlocked, and forgot where they put it either after a long hunt, or a house move.

I think its a ridiculous idea personally.

Also, I think burglars look for locks and safes before going through anything else, as it instantly says "steal me if you can!", so a hidden safe should be safer than a locked cupboard in general.

Bunnies next year?

Chris

I think that's a pretty irresponsible way of looking at it.

Not bothering to store the bolts separately because they might find them anyway?

A- maybe they found your key hidden in a stupid place.
B- The order and sale of rifle bolts would be rather easy to track.
C- Sacrificing firearm security because you might be stupid and lose your bolt is not a valid reason, take more care.

D- It's not just burglars you're trying to keep away from your firearms, many children have killed themselves or siblings because they've gotten a hold of firearms.

As for burglars not being as stupid as most hunters, I'm guessing you haven't met many/any then.

Originally Posted by Kscott

Thanks for missing the point. If you CAN do it, you SHOULD do it.

If you CAN take the bolt out and store it securely somewhere else you SHOULD, because if a thief does break in, hopefully all you're handing them is a big stick. Unless it's a burglar who has spent more time scoping out your place than the GSCB has - after all, doesn't the security discussed here relate to an opportunistic burglar ? Rifles though storing the magazines securely elsewhere - ever tried to fire a semi rifle with no mag ? Shotguns are clearly a different matter unless you leave in a trigger lock or mag lock, but the point is if you want to hand over to a burglar a full, complete firearm that they just pick up and use then go for it - I don't, because I think it's a stupid option.

Hopefully you're not handing 'them' a firearm at all (either complete with magazine, bolt or whatever) I mean, that's the very reason why we go out and buy our gun safes in the first place right?

Originally Posted by Kapitishooter

Just wondering what kinds of type of storage you guys have? as I am going for licence soon

I was recently "Vetted" for my ten year 'A' Cat licence renewal. One of the forms that was sent to me from the "Southern District Firearms Licencing Manager/Officer" contained the following on "Firearms Security" Some of which you my be surprised!


Quote:

If you are: (A) Applying for a firearms licence for the first time, (B) renewing your firearms licence or (C) a current firearms licence holder, Police require that you have installed in your premises suitable firearms security whether or not you possess any firearms.


Security for firearms- A 'CAT"

By law the applicant must provide a minimum level of security in their place of residence, they must be able to secure the firearm legally if they had to, whether they own firearms or not, or chose to store their firearms elsewhere. If the applicant owns firearms but choses to store them elsewhere with another current licence holder for example, that is allowed however they still must have the required security in their own homes.


Racks:

Commercial racks must be able to withstand a weight test within reason. If the rack is lose or moves when tested then reinforcement to the rack is required.
The lock needs to be sturdy and substantial enough to withstand forcible removal, within reason.


A rack is a fixed object which is immobilized:

A commercial rack bolted to the wall

A rafter in a ceiling space is considered to be a rack as it is immobilized: A heavy duty chain and combination or key padlock wrapped around a rafter is an agreed minimum level of legal security.

A hot water cylinder is considered to be a rack as it is immobilized: Again a heavy duty chain and padlock wrapped around the hot water cylinder is an agreed minimum level of agreed security.

The same principal mentioned above would apply to a house pile.

Those above mentioned options are usually adopted by licence holders who have one or two firearms only.

Consideration needs to be given to the number of firearms and if the storage arrangement is sufficient and secure enough for the numbers held.

If firearms are stored within wardrobes or cupboards it is recommended that the firearms are the only items to be stored within, however if the space is duel purpose, a lock on a wardrobe or cupboard door is not sufficient on its own, the firearm should be additionally secured in either a cabinet or a rack within the area, with either option being bolted to the inside of the wardrobe or the cupboard.

All gun cabinets must be immobilized, either bolted to the floor or wall.

Security storage for firearms should be in a discreet area of the premises.

Ammunition, bolts, magazines and safety parts should be locked away separately from the firearms in another discreet location. One example being a tool box and pad lock, stored out of sight.

Some commercial gun cabinets have separate locked storage for the ammo and parts within the main gun cabinet, this is acceptable. Example there is a separate compartment within the cabinet requiring another key for access.

Endorsement holders must have the security and firearms where they reside.

Unquote:

Hi Everyone - I'm Jason , New to forums ect - but wanted to let people know about E - cat Gun Safes I will have for sale before Christmas. These are NZ made - not imported. Just having the certification paperwork done on them. These are to standard and certified.
External measure : 1500 h x 750 w x 450 d
These are very big and estimated 30 - 40 firearms held.
I am a manufacturer.
Will keep you all informed.
Thanks for your time.

Originally Posted by safeman

Hi Everyone - I'm Jason , New to forums ect - but wanted to let people know about E - cat Gun Safes I will have for sale before Christmas. These are NZ made - not imported. Just having the certification paperwork done on them. These are to standard and certified.
External measure : 1500 h x 750 w x 450 d
These are very big and estimated 30 - 40 firearms held.
I am a manufacturer.
Will keep you all informed.
Thanks for your time.

Welcome Safeman. What will be the cost of that spec?

Welcome to the forum safeman. there will be significant demand for E cat safes coming up.

While renting, instead of bolting to the wall, try laying the cabinet flat on the floor in the corner of a room and tex screwed it into the floor through the carpet.

Comes time to move... after a quick brush of the carpet, can't see any holes. Done.

Most NZ rental houses it's such a mission to find a wall strong enough to take a safe anyway - but usually a nice strong hardwood floor under that carpet!

Practical and clever Grue.

thats exactly what one of the cops at the sika show said to me

I've never kept my bolt or magazines in the lock up inside the safe - seemed a bit illogical to me - so mine have been locked up separately. But then I've never understood why some people would 'hide' a key to their safe anywhere on the property in the 1st place. 'Not sure if Mr Low IQ Burglar would want to go through the challenge of finding a new bolt for a firearm, so it looks like I'll agree to disagree.

My personal experiences in gunshops have been that when I've handed a firearm over for whatever reason I've needed to show my FAL to get my hands on it again.

Bunnies, yup hope to in 2014, but I'd probably do the same as this year - I'll wander the farm having a zen moment listening to music and blowing the buggars into small pieces while you guys can stay up all night

Originally Posted by crnkin

It has always confused me when I hear this from people,

How, if your A cat storage is designed to stop the opportunistic burglar, does storing your bolt separately stop them from finding a rifle with no bolt (after breaking in to a safe no less), and then finding your bolt? Burglars aren't as stupid as 'hunters', in general. I know where most people store their bolts (not locked).

that would mean:

a- If they managed to get into the safe they probably are not an opportunistic burglar so therefore your damned either way.
b- If they are stealing a rifle they don't have a licence, but a bolt requires no licence to buy? Sure, they cost a lot, but they are crims, they can afford it or just nick one.
c- you join the 50% (made up number) of people that have lost their bolt, because they store it separately, usually unlocked, and forgot where they put it either after a long hunt, or a house move.

I think its a ridiculous idea personally.

Also, I think burglars look for locks and safes before going through anything else, as it instantly says "steal me if you can!", so a hidden safe should be safer than a locked cupboard in general.

Bunnies next year?

Chris

Thieves bag gun haul - crime - national | Stuff.co.nz

Things like this which make me want to upgrade security pronto. I'm seriously considering buying the most secure safe I can find, the one I have now aint cutting the mustard in my mind. If people can break into stores and steal them, there's nothing stopping them hitting residential areas with the right knowledge.

So far I store all my firearms in a decent enough safe tek screwed into the floor and wall with bolts stored separately in a lock box from the firearms. My ammunition is also stored in a lock up separate from both bolts and firearms. I don't think a 'decent enough' safe is going to do the trick. It's one of those guncity ones (the place that was burgled recently) with a stupid lock box inside it. I'm thinking of going with a heavy grade 'E cat' one in the shed lying down with as many giant tek screws as possible.

I also believe the best way to stop getting burgled is not telling ANYONE you have firearms or even a licence unless they are family or a mate WITH a licence. Bloody hell sound a bit paranoid here, I'd just hate to get burgled.

Originally Posted by Ahuroa SC

I also believe the best way to stop getting burgled is not telling ANYONE you have firearms or even a licence unless they are family or a mate WITH a licence. Bloody hell sound a bit paranoid here, I'd just hate to get burgled.

Agree, the less people that know the better.

Just shows how piss poor some stores security is, pisses me off that a store with pistols had them so easily accessible. I bet no B-Cat holder would have such poor security that would only take 2 minutes to overcome.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Just shows how piss poor some stores security is, pisses me off that a store with pistols had them so easily accessible. I bet no B-Cat holder would have such poor security that would only take 2 minutes to overcome.

Astounding it is, I think it's about time these stores start taking a look at their own security. Absolutely crazy. They think some chicken wire and some bars are gonna stop the most brazen determined criminals we have in NZ? Some of them are built like silverback gorillas.

That is a shocker. Two minutes for 33 firearms. Shocker really.