https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...oid-conviction
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I gotta say, reading that stuffed article,that fella did alright by his mate. Kept him alive, was a serious shit shot, but did the right stuff and did not shy away from the po and courts after the fact. I would almost lay money that he's not in the dorkstalkers too.
Shit that he shot his mate and both of them did stuff wrong...a lot of accidents(in the workplace for example) are a case of many small errors finally aligning into one big accident.
At least after the fact he kept his mate alive and didnt hide/bullshit the courts, that deserves some Kudos at least but a charge is a charge.
The two things I took from that.
They said he wasn't wearing blaze orange. So?
His mate took it pretty well. I would be pretty pissed if my mate shot me. It must have been a .243
I bet he won't be teachin him any wee tips to shoot better anyways
Anyone else find the "victim at fault" part of the article a bit worrying ?
Could just aseasily have been another hunter (not in his hunting party) or tramper this guy shot. Sure, his mate wandered back into the wrong area, but ultimately the shooter chose to fire at something that was not properly identified.
Exactly right @ebf.
He should have said he had a promising rugby career
Players who have avoided convictions
May 2015 - Blues player George Moala escapes conviction for his part in a boozy late-night brawl. Moala and his brother were jointly charged with assault with intent to cause injury and common assault following a fight which left a man in hospital. Judge Rob Ronayne found the impact of a conviction on Moala and the possibility he could lose his career outweighed the severity of the crime.
January 2015 - Blues player Tevita Li is discharged without conviction for driving with excess blood alcohol. The test revealed he had a reading of 45 milligrams per 100 millilitres of blood. Judge Andree Wiltens said Li had a "stellar" career that could lead to a place in the All Blacks, and a conviction could jeopardise that.
December 2014 - Dunedin rep rugby player Riley Tane McDowall avoids conviction after breaking a man's jaw. Judge Kevin Phillips said a conviction would end any possibility of a professional rugby career.
August 2014 - Rising netball star Sheridan Te Aorere Bignall is granted a discharge without conviction for defrauding StudyLink of $891 in allowance money she was not entitled to. Her lawyer successfully argued there was a realistic chance she could be asked to represent New Zealand overseas in the future and a dishonesty conviction would make it difficult to enter other countries.
August 2011 - Cancer-stricken former Blues player Kurtis Haiu is discharged without conviction after pleading guilty to possessing an offensive weapon and assaulting a property developer. Judge Gerard Winter said he was a role model in rugby, his battle with bone cancer and in accepting responsibility for his actions.
May 2010 - Young Waikato rugby player Bampino Vaa Mulipola is discharged without conviction on charges relating to an incident in which he cut another man's hand with a machete. Judge Melanie Harland said it was "a very narrow call" but a conviction would have real consequences to his potential rugby career.
December 2004 - An All Black receives a discharge without conviction after pleading guilty to assaulting his wife. He is granted permanent name suppression.
The Marlborough Express
Well I don't know about you sneeze but I think that's a load of shit, rugby player or not, they did the crime, they should do the fucking time
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nothing like a simple emotive response aye..
if you think about a proportional penalty for the seriousness of the offending... maybe a promising rugby player would be paying a bigger price to have the same penalty as a no name? Maybe the attention and reputational loss is a penalty that a no name does pay at all? Maybe it's not about getting away with anything?
So just maybe that attitude just smacks of envy without thought? I mean you don't buy the role model bullshit do you?
If you wreck the guys career options, is he more or less likely to be a future problem? - have a wee think about that.. if we spank them without consideration to these sort of issues, whose fault is it if they completely derail and create future havoc?
People with a lot more to lose should behave better you might think, but think about the people involved in physical, confrontational, competitive sport - these people were the warriors, the hunters, the fighters in a less plastic reality. Its no surprise they pop outside the bubble every so often.
Maybe its better to put them back into it while their testosterone is running rampant rather than to try and extract a pound of flesh just to make you feel better..?
Maybe judges know more about this stuff than you do?
Or maybe just don't break the law, or expect to be held as accountable as anyone else
And not any more than anyone else.... precisely the point
Must be a rugby player.....I wasn't agreeing with you.
If your career involves the probability of overseas travel then you know the risk you take if you choose to break the law,
Breaking the law is a choice not an accident, it doesn't matter if your a rugby player, CEO or a night packer if you break the law thats on you.
If the consequences are greater because of your career well guess what that's also on you.
Entitlement thats all it is expecting to be let off with a lighter penalty because of who you are or what you do.
If I committed that crime I would be charged
The fact that I have a young family, am a 1/4 buisness owner who will need to lend to buy out the rest of my buisness and also lend to buy land/ build a workshop witch could all be a no go if I had criminal conviction WOULD NOT BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION
What is more important? A young man with no family making a living playing sport or a young man with a family who's trying to set himself up for a better life
You could argue both men are doing the hard yards
But could you argue that they should be treated different?
I think not
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What about intent ? If the rugby players succeeded with their intention someone gets hurt, if the hunter succeeded in his he would have shot a deer.
Did the victims of the rugby players assaults ask for a discharge as the hunters victim did?
Is showing up and coming rugby players that they maybe insulated from the law because of the sport they play a good example to be setting?
Horseshit... clearly you know nothing about sentencing..Quote:
WOULD NOT BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION
Your personal situation is always part of the equation when the sentencing is determined.
Wrong... I completely understood that you weren't agreeing with me on attempt.. even though you completely ballsed it up.. I also completely understand that you don't understand the issue..
the fact is that penalty for some is greater than for others and despite all the expert opinion on here, there is a requirement to consider that as part of the process.
Sentencing is a complex process that experts struggle to get right, and frankly you lot haven't got a clue. Opinions without capacity or even knowledge are only emotions.
WRONG, I understand it just fine and probably a little more than most around here as I have seen the process first hand many times.
I do however think it's not right, I could bang on all day about it a give examples but at the end of the day you have your opinion I have mine and I'm not about to have a keyboard war with you about it.
No you don't - you're attempting to claim equity without considering the effect of penalty. Thats impossible and there is nothing original about your opinion...Quote:
WRONG, I understand it just fine and probably a little more than most around here as I have seen the process first hand many times.
I do however think it's not right, I could bang on all day about it a give examples but at the end of the day you have your opinion I have mine and I'm not about to have a keyboard war with you about it.
There is nothing that has ever worked in the application of your opinion... it only creates more injustice.
OK - how could you possibly assume outcome before the event? Insulated? There has to be reason to escape conviction - do you think standing in the dock they feel insulated? Find me a statistical breakdown of repeat offenders who have been given a chance compared to those convicted in the first place. Pretty dam low I would think.
Establish the problem... because printing a list of rugby player who received that second chance is pure distortion isn't it? What about the numbers of gen pop people who also have that opportunity? Uni students, first time offenders, young offenders, out of character incidents, otherwise contributing members of society etc..
This is emotive crap couched in a misunderstood emotional appeal to equity, without considering the bigger issues.
Plenty get given a chance and go on to re offend don't have the stats but I can tell you know there's plenty that have been given the chance and go on to have illustrious criminal careers, only gotta look at the ever increasing prison population to know that.
But hey you know best...... And let's face it no matter what is said your gonna shit all over the chess board and strut around like your right anyway
Huh!! I thought I was asking a couple of questions and it turns out I was emotionally, and with no regard for the bigger issues, appealing for equity. :)
And hunters with a promising career (not rugby) that accidently shoot their mate?
:D Im no where near bored enough to go sniffing down that trail.
Well I might just know something about that - and the results are more desirable than they are for conviction...
Your point of comparison is valid - that being penalty associated with an unintended outcome vs a "lack" of penalty for the example you provide...
but the point is not that the rugby player or whatever shouldn't perhaps benefit from a second chance, rather that the penalty for an unintentional event seems severe in comparison?
You are probably right... but it doesn't make the former wrong...
What a sad story, but not all of it. I feel deep respect for the relatives of the dead hunter who pleaded for the shooter.
On the other hand, a thoughtful conversation with a mother this month. Her son, a big fella my size, was killed in a traffic accident. HE got five lines' mention by the paper.
just saying but I'm pretty sure the guy that got put in a hospital wasn't happy when the judge let them off with a pat on the back and said, " go on mate represent the country"
since this has gone waaaay off the original thread topic and onto rugby players getting off light..... i have a question.... as i dont recognise any of those named above i was wondering have any of them actually moved forward on their professional playing "careers" or are they now driving forkhoists in the local warehouse?..... if the latter then i guess the judge got it horribly wrong...... instead of just wrong.
Well Sidney we have plonkers making these decisions, if found guilty the punishment should be universal. No buts or ifs, clearly one size fits all. As mentioned before on here, a king hit on my son was treated by some idiot judge as so immaterial, the offender was given diversion? Fat useless Islander should have been charged with a min of grievous bodily harm. Sentences are crap!
king hit is a interesting one...I believe one of the pollies is trying to push through a bill about it now??? there was a case in Timaru a few years back where single punch dropped fella to pavement and he hit head on gutter....... now IF a single or indeed multiple punch incident sees Joe public faced with manslaugther/attempted MS or indeed even assult..... lets level the playing field as we have chrystal clear evidence that is undeniable nearly everytime a game of rugby (union or legue) is played..... the "intent" is the same...you are pissed off with someone and take a swing....
as to origonal topic.....yes a major cockup was made and luckily THIS TIME someone didnt die......hopefully it helps educate a few others one way or the other.
HMy son was invited to a meeting with him and his family, decided he was lucky and moved on without dwelling on it or getting further involved helping the prick feel good. The offender becomes the victim and needs the support of the one he bashed to overcome his problem. I would have cut his cock of and shoved it down his throat so he could breed, or at least removed a hand, but diversion seems to be enough in the eye of a very bad system!
Not even close Maca... every situation is different, so every outcome has to be as well... to suggest universal outcome is plain stupidity...
I have no idea about the appropriate outcome for your son and everybody gets stuff wrong. But as usual we haven't got all the facts and the judges don't determine what charges are laid. There is usually a reason for that and we don't know what that is either.
Look most of us understand the concept of fairness or proportionality and that doesn't stop suddenly because of personal emotional involvement. In that situation those decisions have to be made by others in order to attempt to maintain some degree of proportional response.
The fact is there is much more to consider that just the feeling of the victim or their families. And it wouldn't matter what was done for many victims, it would never be sufficient or appropriate in their opinion. Look at your response and then consider the contrast with the shooting victim's position in this story... in your case it doesn't matter to you what the offenders story is, in the shooters case he gets convicted anyway in spite of his victim's feeling about the matter...
Society has to consider the downstream effects of making decisions... victims are usually limited in that...
Funny no mentioning that netball player.....getting ripped off just sucks the same as they other crimes.
Interesting points there Sydney.
This is why the justice system seems floored to most.
Maca, I am sorry you were not on hand for your boy, you might relate to this.
My son had just escaped from Waiberia, picked him up from Chch airport still in uniform, we headed for the Macauly river to go Tahr hunting, some drunken fuckwits were already in residence at the hut, the boy went in to sort a brew while I unloaded the truck, I walked in the door to find an unpleasant confrontation, drunken mr tough 40 something, nose to nose with a 17yr old kid making tough man noises, he objected to the uniform - I read immediately what was about to happen and shifted fast, but not fast enough, the headbut connected and the boy got cleaned out. I was into mr tough guy and put him down hard. His two mates were smart enough to stay out when they got told to. Justice was immediate and telling.
I am Old Testament in my outlook regarding justice. I don't believe in touchy feely dogooderism or reform. Society has become what it has, on the back of lack of consequence.
I have to agree with that so much. We wrap everyone up in cottonwool so no one gets hurt at school or growing up. Everyone is a winner and no one loses. Problem is there are no boundaries for them, no understanding of consequences. There seems to be no perception that when something happens "shit just got real" type situations in particular, then the results where someone gets hurt or dies, and they don't accept responsibility because they did not know it could happen, when it is plainly obvious to all around them. I see so many examples these days of people learning the hard way when mistakes are made, that could have been avoided by not crossing boundaries of common sense. But because there were no boundaries growing up they dont foresee the result as a painful one until it hurts them.
@257weatherby great just what you need go out to the back country to get away from all to be confronted by this shit! Just to top it all objecting to the uniform, really wtf hope the Liverpool kiss reeducated him. But probably not.
As much as we would like the justice system to sort out our woes it seems for the majority it doesn't. My good wife trained as a lawyer and got out because law dose not guarantee justice. She went in because she wanted to see the bad punished. Which as we all see is not the way it's how you argue the letter.
Did you get any Thar?
I think you have just explained why the world is so fucked up, maybe you should take a step back and take off you rose tinted glasses and see it as it really is. I’m trying to enforced some payment that has been through the courts and awarded to me, I have bailiffs working on it. Hahaha the crim is telling NZ law it doesn’t apply to him, NZ law is telling me it’s my fault. Great when the judgement goes for you but the offender gives the law the big finger and gets away with it. It’s a civil matter you know! No it’s not it’s a weak system, with no teeth, to much PC shit, yes they are imports and NZ law doesn’t want to be racist, we’re stuffed!!!
Satisfying? Not how I would describe seeing a young boy get smashed, before I could get there to prevent it. Grateful to have been fast enough to prevent worse. The whole thing was quite sour.
The "justice" system in this country has become this weirdly flexible thing that changes according to who has the money or profile to bend it.
"Accidentally" ( prefer the word negligent ) shoot some one, and walk away without sanction that matches the scale of the crime, drive your car "accidentally" onto the footpath and kill a 4yr old child, and get to walk without sanction the matches the scale of crime committed, violent assaults carried out on people every day without genuine sanction.
Sorry Sydney, holding up being a soft and trendy hand wringing liberal apologist as an ideal, will only make sure the downward spiral of effective law and justice continues. Actual consequence without regard for position, money, profile, future prospects is the only way to halt the decline.