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I primarily hunt using a single shot rifle, so there is always "one up the spout". The rifle has a cocking hammer, but no safety. I hunt alone in the bush with this setup and only cock the rifle just before taking a shot. I'm mindful to deactivate the cocking mechanism if I don't take a shot. It's such a simple system that there isn't much to get confused about, even in the heat of the moment.
There is a little Bergara ss in the cupboard so will likely do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by MB
GPM.
When I was 16 I had a 8mm Mauser, and the scope didn't allow the original safety to be used so I used to carry it as the op suggests - uncocked and on a loaded chamber.
That was fine until the day I shot a deer, had a quick reload and didn't uncock it after.
I nearly blew my head off climbing out of a creek using the rifle as a walking stick when the trigger caught a bit of exposed root.
The blast from the muzzle was so close I thought I'd shot myself, and losing hearing didn't help my cognitive abilities any.
I strongly recommend not doing it - you'll be fine until you're not.
I think the key learning from this thread is that some NZ hunters will apparently go to great lengths to come up with weird concoctions of action state simply to avoid using a manufacturer designed and approved safety.
I have two states when actively hunting with my bolt action rifles; bolt closed on empty chamber or bolt closed on loaded chamber with safety on. The second state is never when behind someone and no matter what state the rifle always pointed in a safe direction.
My opinion is all of these weird variations of half closed bolts etc. provide no additional safety and in many instances are more unsafe than simply using a safety. Should you rely on a safety? No but I know for certain it's been tested and designed better than something the manufacturer doesn't recommend, nor have they designed or tested. I also question why some gunsmiths in NZ have modified things like Tikkas just so people can use these strange versions of action state, I suspect market demand based on some weird hangover we all seem to have from our forebears hunting with .303s that had half cocks.
In saying this not all safeties are the same either. I much prefer those safeties that directly action on the sear and firing pin to hold back and retain the firing pin than those that simply block the trigger.
When will I use a half cock?
With my Uberti 1873 lever action, Pedersoli Sharps 1874, and my Lee Enfield No4 that all have an action with a designed and manufactured half cock.
Unfortunately I have had a open bolt close unintentionally so I use discretion when I am hunting- the situation is variable so my methods change to match. Rifle is normally carried empty chamber and closed. If I get into a situation where I may need to make a fast decision, I put one up the spout, push the bolt forward and hold the bolt up/ forward with my thumb above the handle and the palm / fingers around the trigger guard (same position if you were about to load / close the bolt quietly) . If I need to cock and fire I close the bolt as I move the hand downwards to the trigger. But if there is a round in the chamber, I am either physically holding the bolt up or I am about to fire. A lot of time stalking rabbits was where I learnt to carry a BA in that manner and it has carried across to centrefires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
The situation I had as I was stalking some goats on cleared forestry. I was traversing what I though was loose clay but was a layer of clay over pine slash. I went through on one leg falling forwards and the rifle went into the slash butt first as my arms were wrench back by branches. As I lifted the rifle back up, I spotted the bolt had been pushed shut and on closer inspection it had been pushed closed and was in a cocked position and had a chambered round from the magazine.
Hence now closed on empty until I am ready to 'get personal". I would rather lose a possible chance at an animal than any of the alternatives that could come to pass.
I will use the 'half open bolt' position with the bolt cupped as described in the post above when ready and waiting to shoot, like watching an animal moving in the scrub. The rest of the time the chamber is empty and I find that I actually enjoy my hunting more this way because I dont have to think about the state of the rifle. It also adds a bit of excitement, having to very quietly chamber a round from the mag without alerting the quarry
I personally don't see how relying on a well designed safety when hunting alone is more dangerous than a half cock which would mean that the sear can be released.
you should always follow the rules of gun safety and ID your target 100 percent.
I am sure we all agree, pointing the firearm in a safe direction and keeping it under deliberate control must be the primary safety measure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian 22.
The difference between a 'half open bolt' and the 'bolt closed and the safety on' is that it is very easy to lift the bolt and move it backwards to make the rifle safe with the 'Half open bolt'. Whereas the rifle on 'safe' (often/ mostly) has to have the safety moved to 'fire' before the bolt can be lifted and the round removed, so at this point it is more dangerous.
The bolt closed on a round with sear released is the method that I am concerned about
The failure of the zastava safety on the trigger mecanism is a well known topic. I think mentioned in the book bolt action rifles of the world.
As mentioned above, where the barrel points is the first thing that should mater the most.even if having an empty chamber. If walking behind a mate, most often I will have my barrel pointing behind me.
The second thing is adopt the safest method and stick to it. All the time. And check ,check and recheck:
You are bout to cross an obstacle, check prior and after ( actually you should have an empty chamber then). You stop for a bite, Check …. Etc.
I have learned to use a reliable safety while stalking in Europe. But I am equally confortable to use the half cock method. But I am not perfect and have a few times done some mistakes with no bad consequence and learned from them.
The method described by the poster about having the bolt closed and the firing pin resting on the primer of a chambered round is commonly called «* the African safety*» in France. It can kind of work , but is not that safe. I know of 3 different persons that had a shot go off. Two of them was when they were pressing the trigger and trying to slowly push the bolt down. Something went wrong in their manipulation ( often the trigger not pressed first) and the shot went off. Lucky for them the barrel was pointing in a safe direction but ittaught them a good lesson. The third one was a Remington 700 in the hands of a guy in Africa. He was in a back of Ute as they were traveling on tracks looking for game trails. The car came to stop and everybody jumped out. Apparently the rear of the bolt shroud got knocked on the side of the pick up truck and the shot went off.
The rifles I like for their safety are the Winchester and the kimber with their 3 positions safety on the bolt, also the older bsa . The blaser safety ( now copied by a few other European brands) and the modern browning blr, which has half cock position plus the top of the hammer that can be pushed forward and completely block the chance of having anything touching the firing pin.
in my book the three most important firearms rules are
#1 muzzle control
#2 muzzle control
#3 muzzle control
if the plurry thing is always pointed in a safe direction,even a dishonourable discharge will not result in injury or damage to anything...
Too true - I even comment to anybody with me that looks like they’re about to break that rule - even Mrs Finnwolf!Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Never a truer word spoken Micky Duck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
I have in the past adopted a practise of having ba 3"12g loaded if we are moving into a goosehunting hot spot.
however
1/I loudly in form everyone in the party Im loaded aka HOT as we move off
2/I lead the column formation
3/should no game be spotted I unload /make safe -and inform the others Ive done so.
what does bloody annoy me is people who wander in and pick up a gun without asking permission of the owner.even if im shooting with cobbers should i havbe to move their weapon ill always tell em -Its called Respect.likewise when youre back at the wagons packing up it doesnt do any harm to do a mutual firearms check to ensure safety prior to stowing you guns.
That's why I bought a rifle with a 3 position safety. Changes the mostly to never.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
Always identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss and I will be missed
Never say neverQuote:
Originally Posted by Eat Meater
Some may say that's not a definitive benchmark..Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
I always feel nervous when I watch some US hunting videos when they stick one up the spout, close the bolt, apply the safety and start hunting.....
@6x47 Just for you ..... https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rc...ud5-OfZbP2hcjM
Yeh, seen it before, based on plenty of historic events.
I do that with the semi autos and pumps when a shot is likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblefoot
Moa, you should politely suggest your acquaintance invest in either an R8 or R93.
They’re reasoning is foolish and flawed with a 700.
*Their
Yes I agree, he wont buy one though. Was a very safe person in the past, but now in his 70's maybe not worried if he goes out with a bang !Quote:
Originally Posted by Moutere
The scary thing about guns is that if you use them long enough or often enough you will have your own scary story. Thats how careful we need to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Nolan
over my hunting career i can recall two people who did precisely what you detailed-Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
one a f..g ignoramus who upon exiting some scrub we'd been told to enter line abreast(military style and keep each other in sight for safety) tho ught it ok to zoom ahead and we are confronted with a loaded .22 pointed at us .the guy heading the shoot said nowwt,, took the rifle off idiot turfed the bolt as far as he could into the open paddock ,told re st of us UNLOAD shoots over!!c..t hooks whined about having to retrieve bolt,but we all ignored him .he later rang me wanting a second chance my response response FuckOff
same wanker again badgered another mate of mine into letting him join a spotlighting trip on possums. we had a rule -designated shooter fires 1st shot -if animal wounded or miss ed we all fire one shot in battery. Arsehole big noting jumps the gun shoots a possum in the spine then giggles like a schoolgirl as it writhes and drags itself up the road"only a bloody possum".I was that fucking wild I roared at the driver to stop hit the road running and delivered the euthaniser as the poor bloody animal tried to drag himself up the bank! I very nearly wrapped that bloody animal round his poxy wee face.
Somehow word of his antics reached one of the local boys in blue and strangely he sold his.22 after that-no one would shoot with him -he couldnt understand why!!!!!!!!!
A while ago i took a guy out after geese-he claimed hed done this tons of times .Nup twice i turned hes behind me with you guessed it me looking at the business end of his gun, which he freely admitted had one up the spout .I was so fucked off after telling him the best embalmers in the fucking world couldnt make me any unuglier than I was ,so he had a snowballs chance in hell wi th a 12guage cartridge, and his firearm safety skills were as welcome as a baby nap full of shit ,so trip over .He whined to a mate of mine who said youre bloody lucky he didnt shove it up your arse cause he does things like that as a nurse! Nope later he did apologise but i told him once was too much full stop!
Rule number three!
when I was doing Firearm safety talks I always demonstrated the "wave the barrel past my guts again and I will put it up your fundamental orifice " most seem to get it surprisingly -personally I dont trust any safety that simply blocks trigger -the old block the firing pin ones (pre 64 winchester) much better but still only a safety -I use half cock when ready to shoot -but I hunt carrying my rifle ready to put up -generally only ever use sling on horse or quad - I used for years a 742 woodmaster Rem semi auto and several times have picked it up after dealing to a deer and bloody safety off lol and thats using it every dayQuote:
Originally Posted by kotuku
an old friend had bad habit of carrying 270 with it fully cocked over shoulder hanging onto end of barrel - slipped in creek crossing - butt hit ground - blew out most of shoulder joint -he lived and was shearing several years later -just looked a bit lopsided across shoulders -used to amuse us by saying fucken useless .270 just woundsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
with the shottie i always carried like i carried my SLR in my TF army days.although left handed its no sweat to bring it to the shoulder . if we walking a fair distance the u/o can be broken/mt and carried over my shoulder,normally if theres no targets around or signs of activity.the s/a Ive done it very occasionally but its not 100%comfortable and little more bulky so its usually the sling.,altho Iget annoyed with it slipping off my shoulder.spatial awareness and awarenss of partners and firing fields is bloody vital here too!
How I hunt when alone,deer don’t hang around long enough to load a round when spotted,they are usually under 30m and hunted hard so they don’t hang around long.if with someone else the guy taking the lead is hot,guy following has mag loaded but nothing up the spout.Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblefoot
personally im not a massive fan of half cock, i understand why people do it and if im hunting with others who prefer this i will do half cock you will also find that nz is pretty much the only country where half cock is a thing, many guns such as tikkas can fire without the bolt being fully closed so in my mind half cock can create a false sense of security. to be fair however i dont do alot of bush hunting i generally night shoot so if i dont see deer i just dont have a round in the chamber, generally i believe your trigger is the ultimate safety however this is coming from shooting glocks that dont have safetys, but i still use the safety on the gun when hunting
I like the line from black hawk down when the delta guy is questioned about not having his safety on when in chow line..”here’s my safety right here”.. holding up his trigger finger..
To be a successful bush stalker, esp if you hunting alone if you dont have one up the spout you going to lose heaps of animals .
Been there, done that, so many times you run into a deer 20-60yards away, already looking at you, as soon as they hear that bolt chamber the round they gone!
I hunt with the round chambered, but genreally bolt not closed,
i have bent the mag on my 243 so the bolt will stay in its postion and its just a case of rasing the rifle and closing
the bolt as you do and squeese off. Its the rifle i take when hunting with someone else as no chance of it going off my accident.
If using the 308 etc its on half cock but the golden rule is i always treat it as loaded, always pointed in a safe direction and often i apply the safety as well as extra precaution.
Bush stalking up close is a different kind of hunting compared to something else and not being able to take a shot very quickly without noise you might as well take up bowls.
And as a note, due to the many out there doing it how many shoot themselves or someone else without being a total idoit when it comes to just carrying your firearm?....if you careful, have some brains,
theres nothing wrong with a number of ways people do it...all comes down to being aware and being careful, esp more so if hunting with someone else, as you may have to change the way you do it as
theres extra risks etc
Have been following this thread with mild interest.Out of interest I have just spent the last hour playing around with three rifles: 2x winchester model 70 and one howa 1500. primed case in chamber bolt closed uncocked. all rifles dropped on floor with force butt first multiple times. Also dropped rifles on floor as can happen when you arse-up when hunting ( be honest, we've all done that at some time.) Not once did primers ( cci, federal, winchester ) ignite. Tried setting primers off by resting large phillips screwdriver against firing pin, which is recessed approx 6mm down from bolt shroud, and hitting with hand multiple times. Not once did a primer ignite. The only way I ignited a primer was by hitting firing pin with punch and hammer. I remember doing this exact test back in the late '70's due to this same to[pic of discussion.
I generally hunt solo and when doing so bush hunting where there are animals about I have used the practice of having a round chambered, bolt closed and uncocked. I also use rifle cocked and safety on when there's animals about. When hunting with others, which I generally avoid like the plague, rifle is carried empty chamber closed bolt. Like many on here, I have spent countless hours walking around with semi-auto firearms "hot" so am used to 'relying' on safeties that have been tested prior to use. I know I'll get some adverse reactions but I'm comfortable with my methods, havn't fcked-up in 50 yrs using firearms. What does make me nervous is the number of people walking around using 'half-cock' on the likes of savage,tikka and other brands which will discharge when the trigger is pulled. I've seen this first-hand and it wakes you up. Anyhow, as always point firearms in a safe direction.
Interesting that someone has now done the test, cheers for that. How do you carry a rifle 'round chambered bolt closed and uncocked' ? The bolt cocks on opening in a Mod 70 so the rifle is 'cocked' when a round is chambered. If the trigger is held back, the sear is released but the firing pin tip is resting on the primer under tension and has not completed it's full travel so is still 'cocked' I believe ? It is 'uncocked' when it has completed it's travel.Quote:
Originally Posted by woods223
On my Mod 700 I filed a tiny slot on the apex of the cocking piece to produce a solid 'half open bolt position' and complete the last part of the stalk with a round chambered and the bolt cocked and in the half open position, but 'cupped' between thumb and forefinger.
My take home is that nothing is totally safe except a chamber checked empty with a physical and not visual check
Took most of his hair off too!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Moutere
The guy in the second rank would have got a hua of a tonging-up!
That polish army video clip.......Oh well i suppose the world can put that down to another "friendly fire incident".
How many of these "friendly fire incidents" within the New Zealand military and New Zealand police don't come out via the media to the NZ public?
Fuck! That could have ended far worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moutere
I experienced almost being shot in the face with this technique. With this rifle type. Round went just over my head as I was getting into landcruser LWB and rifle being put into this mode to go on the rack. Bullet went through side pillarQuote:
Originally Posted by csmiffy