Question re Licencing interview & Storage when Arms will never be present in a flat.

My son is getting interviewed re his licence shortly.
He is in rental accommodation and has explained that he won't be keeping any rifles as they would be stored with me.
The guy has indicated that this is not acceptable and he has to see something. (he is being very reasonable around seeing something)

Anyone had any experience around this.


I have just suggested that my son show the guy page 6 of the Police Storage and some eye bolts and a cable and padlock through a beam in the roof space.
https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def...e-guidance.pdf

Other thing he could try is to change his address back to my place as he's a student in the big smoke.
ZQ

Surely there is someone in your neck of the woods that could check your safe on behalf of your son's interviewer and give the thumbs up. That is where "his" rifles will be stored after all.

I believe if you have a fal you MUST have storage available where you reside normally regardless of your intentions. At least this was indicated (i was told this at my last renewal)

A mate had the same issues if you want to hold a license then you need security to hold a firearm.
Even if you don't have one.
He only needed a chain and padlock around his hotwater cylinder.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

Your son will have to get a safe installed in that case. Short of moving back home.

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Originally Posted by 25/08 IMP

A mate had the same issues if you want to hold a license then you need security to hold a firearm.
Even if you don't have one.
He only needed a chain and padlock around his hotwater cylinder.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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The chain and padlock around the hot water cylinder was enough for my brother in law's inspection.

A co worker had his safe failed today because it had exposed hinges and its bolted to a steel column but not the floor, so he has to go buy a new safe.

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Originally Posted by Dan88

A co worker had his safe failed today because it had exposed hinges and its bolted to a steel column but not the floor, so he has to go buy a new safe.

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The police guidelines say internal or protected hinges, so he may be able to get some sort of shield welded over the hinges.
It has been in the guidelines for years that safes must be fixed to two surfaces.

Yet as obove in other cases a chain and padlock around a hot water cylinder is adequate?

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Originally Posted by Allizdog

Yet as obove in other cases a chain and padlock around a hot water cylinder is adequate?

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Yep, mad eh?

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Originally Posted by ZQLewis

The guy has indicated that this is not acceptable and he has to see something. (he is being very reasonable around seeing something)

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I'm not sure it is that reasonable. Where are firearms safer, chained to a hot water tank in temporary student digs in a big city, or back home with dad on the country estate?

Fairly common occurrence but they usually accept the bare minimum for security in these circumstances

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Originally Posted by mikee

I believe if you have a fal you MUST have storage available where you reside normally regardless of your intentions. At least this was indicated (i was told this at my last renewal)

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Nope (but then again, some of this stuff seems to be very hit and miss depending on which arms officer etc you deal with and their interpretation of things..) but there is a forum member on here who doesnt post much these days and is a bit of a vagrant and a bum walking his way around the south island and he did his renewal recently and used my address and safe as the place he would be storing his firearms

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Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Nope (but then again, some of this stuff seems to be very hit and miss depending on which arms officer etc you deal with and their interpretation of things..) but there is a forum member on here who doesnt post much these days and is a bit of a vagrant and a bum walking his way around the south island and he did his renewal recently and used my address and safe as the place he would be storing his firearms

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Ye old hobbit :thumbsup:

Thanks Guy's. The inspector has said as long as son gives him proof of storage after the interview he will be OK.
I suggested to son that a couple of eye bolts in the back of the wardrobe and a cable and padlock as per page 6 of the Police firearms storage booklet.

Had not through of a chain around the hot water cylinder. Thats an easy thing to show and is non invasive for a flat.
Z

Really interesting discussion.

My son's finally moved out.
He doesn't (yet) have any firearms storage as he doesn't actually own any firearms - they're all mine.

It isn't a prerequisite to own a firearm to get a license therefore storage shouldn't be either.

One can hold a firearms license and not own any firearms.

Yeah I had a similiar issue in that I moved into a small towhouse (wife and i) and advised the Police of a change of address etc - my firearms are stored with a mate of mine. I was rung by a contracted Police vettor (retired policeman) wanting to came round and inspect my "security" arrangements.
I explained to him that my firearm's are stored at a mate's place.
He advised that there is still a requirement to provide secure storage on the odd occassions where I may be required to keep my firearm's over noght etc and suggested the eye bolt(s) / cable / padlock option.
Also spoke to the local arm's officer and he said that when he needs to store a firearm over night in his haouse he padlock's the firearm in the ceiling cavity to one of the roof trusses/frames.
After the visit to check I showed the vetting office my cable / padlock(s) and advised that I would be storing the firearm's in the roof cavity and that was all good for the security side.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

Really interesting discussion.

My son's finally moved out.
He doesn't (yet) have any firearms storage as he doesn't actually own any firearms - they're all mine.

It isn't a prerequisite to own a firearm to get a license therefore storage shouldn't be either.

One can hold a firearms license and not own any firearms.

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True but I think they look at from the view that once licenced you could purchase a firearm at any time and under the law it needs to be stored securely.

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Originally Posted by mikee

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

Really interesting discussion.

My son's finally moved out.
He doesn't (yet) have any firearms storage as he doesn't actually own any firearms - they're all mine.

It isn't a prerequisite to own a firearm to get a license therefore storage shouldn't be either.

One can hold a firearms license and not own any firearms.

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True but I think they look at from the view that once licensed you could purchase a firearm at any time and under the law it needs to be stored securely.

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Interpretations of the law aren't the law.

One can be licensed and not own a firearm - there's not requirement to own a car when you have a driver's license.

One doesn't need and one isn't legally obliged to have secure storage when one doesn't own a firearm.

At the point one owns a firearm it must be securely stored - and there's still no legal requirement that it be stored at one's place of residence.

This is why we, holders of firearms license, get screwed over. Too much interpretation of the law that isn't law.

All very obscure from Police.....I thought one of the recommendations if they didn't do their job and issue a renewal in a timely way.....you had to take your firearms to a current holder and have them stored there......Police recommendation WTF

As far as I know (could be wrong) yes, you have to do this if your licience expires before you receive your new one. Don't think it's just a recommendation.

Do `t know if things changed after 2018. When I moved to a new apartment, the safety check guy ringed for interview, and I said to him I do `t have any firearms because landlord do `t like any holes and he gave me a suggestion for eye screw and cable solution. When he came in, found I did `t install it but after a very quick check in my two beds room apartment, he knew I am the only resident and there was no firearms or ammo then he signed the paper, and showed me where may is possible to hide a rifle if later I buy an one and how to secure it with cable.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Technically there should be no requirement to secure a firearm if you do not leave it unattended or leave the premises.

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Stout lockable travel case, chained to something solid? If it's a short term solution and you aren't leaving it 'unattended' for a long period of time it would have to be a reasonable solution...

I too went through this when I first moved to Auckland and was staying in houses temporarily (guns stored securely in BOP)

"You need to have a safe as you could go out and buy a gun" they told me or basically that I couldn't have a licence anymore.

"I have a driving licence and could go out and buy a bottle of whiskey. Do you want to take my driving licence too, as I could drive drunk"

If you are deemed fit and proper, you should be trusted to not break the law :pissed off:

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Originally Posted by physeptone

I too went through this when I first moved to Auckland and was staying in houses temporarily (guns stored securely in BOP)

"You need to have a safe as you could go out and buy a gun" they told me or basically that I couldn't have a licence anymore.

"I have a driving licence and could go out and buy a bottle of whiskey. Do you want to take my driving licence too, as I could drive drunk"

If you are deemed fit and proper, you should be trusted to not break the law :pissed off:

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Unfortunately, not all firearms licence holders are as trustworthy as the rest of us majority "fit and proper" licence holders. In other words they stuff it for the rest of us.

After reading through this. I feel a lot give talk to the FAL when really being quite is the best option.

How often have you watched the crime shows when the suspect dobs them selves in!

If you are complying to the letter of the law, then ask the FAL where in the letter of the law they see that you are not complying?

Also ask for this in writing!

DON'T give them any suggestions! ie Well what if I do this etc.

It wont help you and in the long run it wont be helping the rest of us.

If you get it in writing then that's gold! That will stand up in court. They know this and its all that counts when it comes down to the nitty critty.

For those that are unsure of your rights......

NICHOLAS J. B. TAYLOR BA L.LB
__________________________________________________ _________________________________
__________________________________________________ ___________________
CIVIC CHAMBERS, Level 4, 2 Chancery St, Auckland City
PO Box 4106, Shortland St, Auckland
Mob: 021 362 123 www.firearmslawyer.co.nz n.taylor@civicchambers.co.nz
27 September 2022
What to do during a visit from the Police
If the Police come and knock on your door or stop your vehicle -
• What is the situation -
i. If you are a standard firearms licence holder - see Section 1.
ii. If you are a firearms licence holder with an endorsed licence (for pistol, restricted
weapon, prohibited firearm or prohibited magazine) - see Section 2.
iii. If the police search your home - see Section 3.
iv. If the police wish to question you - see Section 4.
v. If your firearms licence has been suspended – see Section 5.
vi. If you are stopped in your car - see section 6.
• The Golden Rules for all contact -
i. Be polite but firm.
ii. Ask to see identification.
iii. Record the name of the officer and their station.
iv. Ask why they are there.
v. Ask them to refer to the exact statutory authority they are using to visit your
home or to ask you any questions.
vi. Record all conversations and interactions, either via your phone or CCTV cameras
(for your own notes and records).
vii. If they ask you any questions ask “under what statutory authority are you asking
me these questions and/or requiring me to answer?” TIP: there are none.
viii. You do not have to answer any questions from the police at any time or for any
reason (unless you are detained or are the driver of a car, then your drivers
licence must be given and name, address and date of birth only).
ix. Do not answer any questions about firearms or firearm parts you no longer have
in your possession or control, ie. firearms, ammunition or parts you have
previously owned and sold or disposed of – refer to (vii) above. If you wish, you
can state “I have always sold and disposed of any arms items lawfully to current,
valid firearms licence holders, I do not wish to comment further”. You do not have
to answer questions such as who, when, why or how concerning the sale or
disposal, and just repeat the statement above.
x. Do not consent to a police search of your home or your vehicle at any time.
NICHOLAS TAYLOR – BARRISTER
www.firearms.lawyer.co.nz
27/09/2022 2
Section 1 – If you are a standard firearms licence holder
- You must permit the police to enter your home to inspect all of your firearms you are in
possession of, along with your gun safe and security, and your ammunition and where it
is stored.
However:
i) You must be given at least 7 days notice of this inspection occurring.
ii) The inspection must be at a “reasonable time”. This is a time that most people in
the community would consider to be reasonable, for example 9 am – 5 pm, and
also if there was a good reason why it was not reasonable for the householder, for
example “I have a sick child asleep in that room, please come back tomorrow at
...”.
iii) It only applies to firearms and ammunition you are actually in possession of (ie.
control of). It does not include firearms that are in another person’s possession,
such as a licenced friend, gunsmith or gun dealer etc. There is no requirement to
disclose any information about a firearm not currently in your control or
possession.
- At no time can the police photograph your firearms.
- At no time can they record the serial numbers of your standard firearms.
- Under the Arms Regulations (29), the police may record the quantity and type of each
firearm in your possession (note “type” refers to “rifle”, “shotgun” only).
- It is an offence to refuse to let the police inspect your firearms, ammunition and security
without a good reason. This once again only applies to firearms and ammunition you are
actually in possession of.
- You need to produce your firearms licence on demand, but you have 7 days to do this if it
cannot be located immediately (s 26 2 of the Arms Act 1983).
- If you are carrying a firearm in your possession, if stopped, you must allow a member of
police to inspect said firearm that you are carrying (not in a vehicle, as this is not carrying
but transporting; carrying is “on your body”, in your hands or slung over your shoulder in
a gun bag.
NICHOLAS TAYLOR – BARRISTER
www.firearms.lawyer.co.nz
27/09/2022 3
Section 2 - If you are an endorsed firearms licence holder
- As a firearms licence holder, as in section 1 above, the police can, at a reasonable time,
ask to see individual restricted or prohibited firearms that you hold as an endorsed
person.
- For this purpose they may enter the premises to view and inspect the restricted weapon,
prohibited firearm or pistol, and the security for it.
- You must be given at least 7 days notice of this inspection occurring, s 24 B (3) (a), as the
endorsement for pistols, prohibited firearms and restricted weapons is attached to your
standard firearms licence.
- The inspection must be at a reasonable time to inspect your safe and security.
- 5 am in the morning is not a reasonable time. For example, if you have a sick child or
guests asleep in the room where the firearms are stored it is therefore not a reasonable
time for you as the homeowner. Politely ask them to come back later or set a time with
them for another day.
- However, if it is a reasonable time, you must allow them to inspect your endorsed firearm
(singular), (pistols, restricted weapons, prohibited firearms or prohibited magazines), and
your safe(s) and security.
- It is an offence to refuse to produce a pistol, prohibited firearm or restricted weapon to
the police on demand, or to refuse their request to inspect it and the security for it, but
this demand to inspect or produce is tempered by the fact that it must be a reasonable
time to the home owner, and only if you are actually in possession of the items they are
requesting at the time of their demand.
- Remember, there is no such thing as a register of firearms in NZ (until part 104 of the Arms
Legislation Act comes into force on 24 June 2023). The police record of endorsed firearms
is their own creation. It has no legal basis and is of little concern to you. The permission
for you to possess a firearm comes from your endorsement and permit to possess or
import that individual firearm.
- You must produce your firearms licence on demand by the police. You have 7 days to
comply with this demand if it cannot be immediately located.
- The legal requirement states that the police must identify and ask to inspect a specific
identified firearm (by make, model, caliber and serial number). Upon that request the
endorsed licence holder must produce it for inspection. It is not a requirement that all
NICHOLAS TAYLOR – BARRISTER
www.firearms.lawyer.co.nz
27/09/2022 4
need to be produced for inspection at once. Each separate item must be identified and
then produced in turn in order to comply with the conditions on the endorsement.
Section 3 – The Police enter your home via a search warrant, or under the Search and
Surveillance Act warrantless search or Arms Act provisions for search.
- Ask – “Under which enactment are you searching my home?”
- Ask for a copy of any search warrant.
- Do not answer any questions and say “no comment thank you”, “ I do not wish to make
any statement or answer any of your questions”. You have a right to silence. If you are
detained lawfully by the police you must give your name, address and date of birth, but
nothing else. There is no such thing as “off the record”. Ask to call your lawyer without
delay (Nicholas Taylor – Barrister; 021 362 123).
- You must assist the police in accessing your safes and security for firearms.
- If they demand that you give them security codes, passwords or codes for computers or
electronic devices, you can refuse this pursuant to s 130 (2) of the Search and Surveillance
Act 2012, by saying “I do not have to at law as they may contain material that is self-
incriminatory”.
- Record the name of the OC (officer in charge) and record QID numbers (collar tags) of all
police staff attending the search.
Section 4 - The Police ask you to attend the police station and/or come to your home and
wish you to answer questions, eg. your name is on a “list” of people to be spoken to etc.
- Get the name and QID number (collar tag) of the officer. Ask for identification.
- Ask - “Under which statutory authority are you requiring me to answer these questions?”
- Politely and calmly refuse to answer any questions.
- Ask them to leave your property immediately.
- Call a lawyer who can advise or assist you with Official Information Act requests
concerning the reasons for their visit and IPCA complaints if appropriate.
- Record the conversations (for your own notes and records).
NICHOLAS TAYLOR – BARRISTER
www.firearms.lawyer.co.nz
27/09/2022 5
Section 5 – The police issue you with a suspension of firearms licence notice (s60A Arms Act
1983
- The Police can, without warning, and at any time of the night or day, appear at your
address in force and issue you with a Notice of Suspension of Firearms Licence.
- The Police “might/or may” demand you surrender all of your firearms and arms Items to
them immediately.
- No offence is committed by you if you refuse this demand.
- Do not invite them into your home.
- The Police may seize your arms items if you refuse, but they cannot enter your premises
to do so. A notice of suspension of a firearms licence is NOT a search warrant.
- The police will need to seek a search warrant or conduct a warrantless search for this
seizure to actually occur. Certain legal requirements need to be met before this can occur
and can be challenged.
Section 6 – The police stop your vehicle when you are the driver
- Recent law changes mean that the police have full access and connection between Land
Transport NZ and the Firearms Licencing records.
- If you are stopped by the police, for example driving away from a shooting area, gun range
or hunting ground -
- You must give them your driver’s licence and give them your name, address and date of
birth. Your passengers do not have to give any details or answer any questions at all.
- You do not have to answer any questions about if you have firearms in your car, or any
other surrounding questions at all. In a vehicle you are transporting firearms, you are NOT
carrying them (24 B(1)(b)) (see Section 1 above).
- The police have no right to search your vehicle without evidence that a potential crime
has been committed. Simply adhering to your rights by stating (vii) above, and stating “no
comment” or “there is no legal requirement for me to answer that question”, cannot be a
reason to invoke a warrantless search on your vehicle; this would be an unlawful police
search.
- The police can ask to inspect your firearms and ammunition and where they are kept and
view your security arrangements in your vehicle (24B(1) (d)), but they must give you 7
days notice of their desire to do this (24B (3) (a)).
NICHOLAS TAYLOR – BARRISTER
www.firearms.lawyer.co.nz
27/09/2022 6
- The police cannot stop your vehicle and demand to inspect your firearms on the roadside.
Say “you must give me 7 days notice of this inspection occurring” and make a time after
that with them if they wish.
REMEMBER: A fit and proper person should be one who co-operates with the police within
the requirements of the law, but not beyond it.

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Originally Posted by Cigar

The chain and padlock around the hot water cylinder was enough for my brother in law's inspection.

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I used the same thing . I was living in an air bnb for 3 months whilst between properties. It all started when i went to the station to get a buyers form endorsed and I told them i was no longer living at the address stated. They got a bit shitty that I hadn't told them even though my rifles were in the back of a locked 40 foot container in a safe . It didnt matter . Needed to have security so yep the old chain around the hot water cylinder .

Further to @Longranger s post above, here is the latest release from Nicholas Taylor
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/act...pdf?1664340534

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Originally Posted by mikee

True but I think they look at from the view that once licenced you could purchase a firearm at any time and under the law it needs to be stored securely.

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True, plus if you going hunting the next day at 4am are you really going to go to ye old mans at that time and collect the rifle...unlikely.
Its pretty clear if you have a firearms licence where you live you must have some safe storage be it if you have a firearm or not.
Its all good to say its all b/s but if this rule isnt in place whats stopping any firearm owner to lie and say im keeping all my firearms elsewhere hence never to have safe storage.
it will happen no doubt, still many dodgy people out there that own firearms ...just the facts.

Of course it comes down to your local arms officer and what the situation is.
Of course if your kids are at boarding school etc im sure no firearms would be allowed there anyway hence storage at your parents etc would be fine as its common sence .

Theres always exceptions due to what the situation is but generally its pretty clear, safe storage is going to be required where you living.
In this post as its where you living nearly in all cases you not going to get away with storage elsewhere because you just renting.

Its not a good enough excuse , you have to have something in place if the arms officer doing his job properly.

Following on from deer 243, so you got your licence while living at home aged 16. Then you move to Auckland to go to uni living in dom's. No chance of storing a firearm. Using your logic you would have to cancel your licence as you can't meet storage requirements.
Same for when you are between houses, renting etc. Firearms may be in safe storage somewhere else for a period of time. Dose that mean you could loose your licence?
Z

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

Really interesting discussion.

My son's finally moved out.
He doesn't (yet) have any firearms storage as he doesn't actually own any firearms - they're all mine.

It isn't a prerequisite to own a firearm to get a license therefore storage shouldn't be either.

One can hold a firearms license and not own any firearms.

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Having to have a safe/secure storage for firearms at your primary place of residence has been a thing for a long time and isn't unreasonable in the slightest.