True, hopefully there is a transparent inquiry of what happened, i just don't like how rules are apply differently,Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushy
everyone one is equal and no one is above the law.
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True, hopefully there is a transparent inquiry of what happened, i just don't like how rules are apply differently,Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushy
everyone one is equal and no one is above the law.
You'd hope so but....Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jackel
With this and the shooting of the Courier on the motorway the other year, I sort of think the incidence of accidental shootings compared to firearm use time must be astronomically high amongst police compared to hunters and recreational shooters. Tens of thousands of recreational firearms users using firearms every day, only a couple of incidents a year, a few thousand police using firearms every so often and at least 2 accidental shootings in the last 4 years
@The Jackel - Totally, but it really grates when people compare police/army to recreational SPORTING firearms license holders.
@Towley - They have have planes which fly around autonomously killing people, appreciate it's not a car ... just sayin ;/
@gimp - Police offices manage to kill maybe one or two animals a year whereas hunters kills 100's of thousands.
I don't see what relevance that has to my post about the possibly higher incidence of accidental shootings of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan
I personally have seen a few instances where guns have fired inadvertently due to mechanical error which easily could have resulted in someone being injured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Towely
As for that, hunters go out with the intent to kill, police go out with the reaction to kill if the situation calls for it. Really is no comparison there?Quote:
@gimp - Police offices manage to kill maybe one or two animals a year whereas hunters kills 100's of thousands.
I get what Gimp was trying to say, statistically Police probably have a higher percentage of accidental shootings when taking into account times firearms are used vs recreational hunters, BUT the same situational stresses wouldn't be involved (like this whole sniper vs bench rest argument) combined with other factors like training and functionality of firearms. From what I have been told all their triggers are quite heavy to try and avoid this kind of accident which in cases like the courier driver could lead to less accurate shots.
Were they being used/handled by a person at the time or were they just sitting there loaded with nobody around them when they went off?
As far as negligence vs mechanical failure it'd have to be like, 1000:1 incidence ratio or higher.... it's easier to say "it just went off" though, than "I'm a dingus and I had my finger on the trigger when I shouldn't have".
Handled at the time, however nothing near the trigger. Things like firing as soon as the bolt closed due to mechanical issues in the trigger mechanism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Towely
I'm with you on that Gimp, very few would put their hand up, "I'm the muppet who accidentally shot the prick 'cos I wasn't paying proper attention, sorry boss"
If it was being handled then it hardly went off on its own.
this is what I think if anyone cares...the guy was on the ground and handcuffed. the rifle should have been checked clear before moving him. simple.
Not realistic in Police situations, as soon as they get to an area the firearms are actioned and don't get cleared until suspect AND scene is secured, think about it, you're more likely to get a UD when mucking around with the action beside an offender than if you just leave it slung.Quote:
Originally Posted by sakokid
If all procedures that Police implement were followed then this wouldn't have happened, however I don't know anything about what happened so I will reserve judgement until I do.
Of course the gun has an outside influence, it was being carried! What did you expect? The rifle to go into the house all on its own and apprehend the offender?Quote:
Originally Posted by Towely
You have no idea who the cop is or how much of a contribution he has made to our society and may continue to make, he is a person with bills and probably a family. Should we sack every truck driver that has an accident in his truck? Or every doctor that makes a bad call and loses a patient? Would have you been willing to enter an unknown house with an unknown mental offender with your Stony Creek gear and hunting rifle?
Ya know really we wenrt there so what makes us the experts............................??????unless were qualified on the subject of this incedent then......................just fuck up and stop pretending you have been there.......................................really fuck up.....................................any AOS in here??????????????????????? no ?ha ha nah I wasn't there either so id just feel sory for the AOS member and not try and say how id react in the situation........................just saying.
The courier was the victim of a ricochet, not a misidentified target.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
You can't compare the two, completely different situations, stupid to even try and make a point of it.
If not being there was the rule behind any discussion then it would be a pretty quite world and an empty forum?
How do you know no one here is a member of the AOS and or police with in depth knowledge of the SOP for these situations though? Just assuming because they don't sign off every time with their badge number?
Dead right on sympathy for the member that shot him though. Regardless of how it happened its still a shit situation.
These AOS guys or what ever they are called are acting under stresses us ordinary people can't even imagine. You simply can't compare it to a hunting situation, any more than you can put yourself in the shoes of the officer who had his firearm discharge.
Suspend the judgement and rah rah and wait and see. If someone is culpable they will get their formal come uppance. As well as having to live with whatever happened.
There. And I didn't say f-ck once.
An accident is an accident... "It's okay he just didn't check his firing zone" ? nah. but there's a different imperative there than when huntingQuote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
Not really making a serious point since they're not comparable situations
So the AOS was called due to this person causing problems,
They ARE the AOS eg wepons may be needed to detain the person...All persons there will shoot if nessacery
So they detained the guy.
A rifle..likely an AR was slung over a sholder once the person was detained.
easy for any body to have happen..
Go get your ARs out of the safe remember to 1st check its clean and safe.
once safe throw it over your rite sholder muzzle down.
Click...
If no click close your curtans and jump and move around fast.
you will get a click...before long.
If the officer didnt intend to shoot the guy then his incompetence resulted in the gun going off. Yep, sack the fucker. He/she shouldnt be allowed to be armed.
Kinda like comparing the crash rate of a WRC or IndyCar driver with the little old lady only driving to her local Countdown, and then coming to the conclusion that the racing driver has piss poor driving skills :DQuote:
Originally Posted by gimp
So sure you want to stick with this line of reasoning Gimpster ? :P
But the fact that the firearm was slung on the back and he was helping the already incapacitated guy up indicates that he was no longer in a pressure situation. At this point he was driving home past the same supermarket as the old lady. I won't mention the statistics that point to race drivers having a substantially greater probability of a crash on the road than the non race driver. Guess they just can't handle it when everyone is not going the same direction. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
AOS AR15s have 2 point butt slings, when they sling it hangs downwards on their non master side, they aren't slung on their backs.
Fair enough, but at the time of the incident he would not have been in a particularly stressful situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
If it was me, I'd feel it wasn't a stressful situation once crazed nut job who had a string of convictions including saying he had a bomb on board a bus, was hog tied in the paddy wagon. Just handcuffing someone doesn't necessarily turn angry man into Mother Theresa.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetman
Considering the number of times firearms are loaded and carried by Police, including front line, AOS and STG, the number of accidental discharges does seem to be quite low.
GM, just because the guy is the ground and restrained does not mean the situation is calm. The person can still be kicking out, trying to bite you, spitting at you etc. their family or friends may getting involved, or their dog could be using you as a chew toy :D
True, but accounts of this incident point to quite a calm situation at the time of the incident. Personally I back the police 200%. Just playing 'devils advocate' here.
:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetman
Sometimes the message gets lost.
Having been in similar situations I can actually see how this could happen. Regardless, there is a copper out there feeling like utter rubbish right now, and I seriously feel for him.
As an aside, I'm still amazed by some (a lot) of the retarded and red neck responses towards "percieved" offenders on this site. A lot of people are quick to defend the actions of cops by saying, you don't know the circumstances, but no one seems to afford the same, rational thinking to the other party. Why is that?
In this particular situation there are only losers but I have been impressed by the Police response. No real surprise though, Glen Dunbier is a sharp operator.
One offender. Aos squad knew that enroute.
offender calmly walked out of house and across grass with empty hands raised above head as asked,then lay down voluntarily.
Was cuffed.
House was searched and suspects firearm was located under bed.
Officer who was grasping him by shoulders and elbows to lift suspect to his feet had his firearm discharge causing one bullet wound to upper chest area of suspect.
oops.
Mechanical or user at fault ?
If it was me lying in Hospital I doubt id really care one way or the other in the grand scheme of things.
Not really since I already said I wasn't making a serious comparisonQuote:
Originally Posted by ebf
I doQuote:
Originally Posted by Proudkiwi
Gah, should have said 'not many seem too' not 'no one'. Inconsistent statements in my post. I apologise :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proudkiwi
It's all good
The IPCA's report on the matter suggests otherwise, particularly points 160 and 162. Not to mention the report's conclusions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1
CONCLUSIONS
The actions of Officers 81 and 84, in firing at Stephen McDonald, were justified and therefore not contrary to law.
However, the following were undesirable:
• NorthComms did not establish and maintain firm command and control over the police operation;
• the AOS tactical response was compromised by limited communications and by the number of members available;
• Officers 81 and 84’s shooting was inaccurate and therefore unsafe;
• the failure by Officer 84 to identify risks in the line of fire;
• the AOS commander’s dismantling of the weapons of Officers 81 and 84; and
• the post-incident process was neither well coordinated nor sufficiently robust.