Thread: Rifle range in Hastings in trouble ?

Half these range inspectors are on their own job creation program,some probley never had a fal.

I disagree, the list of inspectors are all fal holders, many are members of national shooting organisations. All attended "training" in applying the templates and inspection criteria laid out in the police range manual. The manual is a prescriptive "standard".
Variations are likely to attract scrutiny such as in our case where the distance from the target to the backstop exceeded 30 metres it was approved as a reduced danger area range by the private inspector we employed as the backstop actually is a 165 m high papa cliff. His assessment is being reviewed as we speak.

Originally Posted by Nickoli

The HBRC range has large earth backstops, and side stopbanks.
It is not shooting into an open riverbed.
The "target area" has earth filled tyres.
The range has been closed down as a result of the new rules.
Those less scrupulous with safety are now shooting in open riverbeds and DOC land - not saying this didn't happen previously; but anecdotally this activity will increase.
Work is being undertaken to rectify the HBRC range - but it will be 2 months or so before the range can be re-opened.
Don't think this couldn't happen in your location.

What help does the range need to get going again? Funds, Gear, People with tools? surely we can sort something, i have time in december to tiki tour down there and give a hand if needed, can propably round up a mate or 2. or is it literally just 1 sign?

Originally Posted by Nickoli

The "target area" has earth filled tyres.

I think the FSA (now) Range Manual has flip-flopped on the earth filled tyres thing. I think there was a bit in the manual about they were worries about low velocity projectiles basically "bouncing" off the tyres and the steel windings. I think FSA had talked about an earth layer (500mm thick) on top of the tyres but then you need to keep that earth in place - compaction will get it there to start with (keeping in mind the required angles) but then projectile impact will wear it down again. Heavy conveyor belt type material comes in handy here but then you need a maintenance / replacement program for that as well.

Originally Posted by Gillie

I think the FSA (now) Range Manual has flip-flopped on the earth filled tyres thing. I think there was a bit in the manual about they were worries about low velocity projectiles basically "bouncing" off the tyres and the steel windings. I think FSA had talked about an earth layer (500mm thick) on top of the tyres but then you need to keep that earth in place - compaction will get it there to start with (keeping in mind the required angles) but then projectile impact will wear it down again. Heavy conveyor belt type material comes in handy here but then you need a maintenance / replacement program for that as well.

....sigh.... I'm sure this has been a problem for a very long time....

Originally Posted by NewbieZAR

What help does the range need to get going again?

Common sense.

Originally Posted by Nickoli

....sigh.... I'm sure this has been a problem for a very long time....

Yeah ..... I'm sure that slow projectiles "bouncing" off the tyre wall happens all the time and everybody desperately wants to keep it hush-hush so nobody is saying anything about it .....

Originally Posted by 30.06king

Yeah ..... I'm sure that slow projectiles "bouncing" off the tyre wall happens all the time and everybody desperately wants to keep it hush-hush so nobody is saying anything about it .....

...benefit of the doubt: I'm sure you have a point.
Whatever your point is, it may be relevant for some ranges, probably not in this case.
Your comment suggests you have not visited this range.

Reading the full article in HB Today it seems that the fix is agreed on but just has not been done yet. I note also that Taupo is removing tyres from their bullet catcher and backstop as they find them. Other ranges are using plastic drums with the tops cut out and filled with various mediums as a bullet catcher
GPM.

As part of the new regulations tyres are not recommended for bullet catchers as the wire belts can cause ricochet or sparks, that's what were were told

Originally Posted by Nickoli

...benefit of the doubt: I'm sure you have a point.
Whatever your point is, it may be relevant for some ranges, probably not in this case.
Your comment suggests you have not visited this range.

Correct, I have not visited this range. So maybe my comment is out of context.
My point is I suspect that potential bullet "bounce" is more an imagined than actual problem and it seems, to me, a dubious reason for shuttering this range as "non compliant". However, I admit no expertise on this and fall back only on my own experiences of shooting against tyre wall backstops without issue ( even with 22LR ) and in wider context neither have I heard of a single problem, ever.
However, we have the new regs now and ranges must comply. Too late for bitching now and work must be done to satisfy the guys who certify ranges for use. In the end though, I ask myself, how much safer have we made ourselves now compared to the almost or actual completely safe operation ranges up and down the country have exhibited for many, many years.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Reading the full article in HB Today it seems that the fix is agreed on but just has not been done yet. I note also that Taupo is removing tyres from their bullet catcher and backstop as they find them. Other ranges are using plastic drums with the tops cut out and filled with various mediums as a bullet catcher
GPM.

@grandpamac What are the exact issues that caused the range closure? Does the newspapaer article go into detail. Except for mention of signage and flags at the start of this thread I cannot understand exactly what the issue is. Thread is now 3 pages long. If the issue was only signage and flags that is normally something easily resolved. It would be useful for others who are involved in their own range certifications to know.

Here's a photo from June last year so it's obvious a lot of work has been going on.

Originally Posted by zimmer

@grandpamac What are the exact issues that caused the range closure? Does the newspapaer article go into detail. Except for mention of signage and flags at the start of this thread I cannot understand exactly what the issue is. Thread is now 3 pages long. If the issue was only signage and flags that is normally something easily resolved. It would be useful for others who are involved in their own range certifications to know.

Here's a photo from June last year so it's obvious a lot of work has been going on.
Attachment 237547

Greetings @zimmer,
I have not spoken to Jeremy about the range so don't know for sure but will offer any help I can. The newspaper article only mentioned the sign right at the end so I think it is more than that. I am assuming it is to do with the bullet catcher and backstop but that is just my guess.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

I disagree, the list of inspectors are all fal holders, many are members of national shooting organisations. All attended "training" in applying the templates and inspection criteria laid out in the police range manual. The manual is a prescriptive "standard".
Variations are likely to attract scrutiny such as in our case where the distance from the target to the backstop exceeded 30 metres it was approved as a reduced danger area range by the private inspector we employed as the backstop actually is a 165 m high papa cliff. His assessment is being reviewed as we speak.

I wouldn't agree with your statement as I have heard one inspector is no longer doing the inspections due to his actions.

Originally Posted by 30.06king

My point is I suspect that potential bullet "bounce" is more an imagined than actual problem and it seems, to me, a dubious reason for shuttering this range as "non compliant". However, I admit no expertise on this and fall back only on my own experiences of shooting against tyre wall backstops without issue ( even with 22LR ) and in wider context neither have I heard of a single problem, ever.
However, we have the new regs now and ranges must comply. Too late for bitching now and work must be done to satisfy the guys who certify ranges for use. In the end though, I ask myself, how much safer have we made ourselves now compared to the almost or actual completely safe operation ranges up and down the country have exhibited for many, many years.

The main two technical guys in the range design/safety area at FSA are very experienced with military ranges and have great experience with backstop materials and the problems and benefits associated with them. The tyre wall backstop thing was discussed with them more than a few times by the national shooting organisations.
I am not personally aware of an incident of projectiles "bouncing" off the tyres but these guys were. I can only assume it is a very low likelihood event - which speaks more to the underlying risk acceptance part of the range certification regime.

I do agree with your last point though - I don't see how FSA will be able to demonstrate the safety benefits of the range certification regime (and justify the expense) if the "currently non-existent" incident rate doesn't drop even further...