Thread: Yet another shooting incident in the states

Originally Posted by Sidney

You need to take your own advice...

sidney, dude ! come on...

the argument they are putting forward is like saying well it's ok for me to drive at 200 km/h because if you don't want to then you don't have to... actions have consequences. saying something like CCW is ok, coz you dont have to do it if you dont want to completely ignores the majority of the population that specifically do not want every second or third person walking around with a concealed firearm. and forget about tactical or self-defense training, what most folks need is to train the muscle between their ears to think clearly and calmly during a crisis.

i am more than happy living in a society where we have a small armed police force, responsible for maintaining order, as opposed to every tom, dick and harry walking around packing. the cops here are very aware of the extremely serious repercussions of shooting someone, and in the majority of cases would rather try to calm the situation than escalate it. that is the balance I prefer, like I said early on, there are loads of places around the globe where you can live with alternate regimes, personally the setup in NZ works fine for me

Why do we end up constantly debating this topic. Honestly you're a fool if you think that the way it is is fine; you're a fool if you think that you can change it. Barking at each other isn't going to change much. Really none of us have a clue what the f**k we're talking about. Each side is sure they are right and the other is biased. Anyway personally i think self defense ownership is bullshit. If someone has the means to kill you, and is going to kill you, they will kill you. No James Bond shit, by the time you've drawn your weapon (if they intended to kill you) you're dead. plain and simple. Aside from that do many of us have the training that makes us quick enough to react to a situation like this and react appropriately. Try this: You're walking by a house and are armed. A man runs out with a knife covered in what looks like blood, stops screams I'm going to kill them, and starts to run back inside. What do you do, let him run away and maybe kill whom ever or what ever, or do you shoot the man and maybe save a life by taking one.

Originally Posted by Eion

Why do we end up constantly debating this topic. Honestly you're a fool if you think that the way it is is fine; you're a fool if you think that you can change it. Barking at each other isn't going to change much. Really none of us have a clue what the f**k we're talking about. Each side is sure they are right and the other is biased. Anyway personally i think self defense ownership is bullshit. If someone has the means to kill you, and is going to kill you, they will kill you. No James Bond shit, by the time you've drawn your weapon (if they intended to kill you) you're dead. plain and simple. Aside from that do many of us have the training that makes us quick enough to react to a situation like this and react appropriately. Try this: You're walking by a house and are armed. A man runs out with a knife covered in what looks like blood, stops screams I'm going to kill them, and starts to run back inside. What do you do, let him run away and maybe kill whom ever or what ever, or do you shoot the man and maybe save a life by taking one.

first part, totally agree....

second part, keep walking and call the police......

Originally Posted by Eion

Why do we end up constantly debating this topic. Honestly you're a fool if you think that the way it is is fine; you're a fool if you think that you can change it. Barking at each other isn't going to change much. Really none of us have a clue what the f**k we're talking about. Each side is sure they are right and the other is biased. Anyway personally i think self defense ownership is bullshit. If someone has the means to kill you, and is going to kill you, they will kill you. No James Bond shit, by the time you've drawn your weapon (if they intended to kill you) you're dead. plain and simple. Aside from that do many of us have the training that makes us quick enough to react to a situation like this and react appropriately. Try this: You're walking by a house and are armed. A man runs out with a knife covered in what looks like blood, stops screams I'm going to kill them, and starts to run back inside. What do you do, let him run away and maybe kill whom ever or what ever, or do you shoot the man and maybe save a life by taking one.

Two options option 1=your armed with a shoty said fulla comes out of house with blood on knife...........swing shoty like a baseball bat in self defnce job done!
option 2=your armed with a pistol said fulla comes out house with blood on knife..............tap tap into forehead fulla hits ground like sack of spuds dies you plead he was running at me with a knife that had blood on it so i acted in self denfence......first time offender 12 months home detention job done
some of you guys are talking hypothetical bullshit! were all gonna act diff and untill your in that situation your just guessing.

Originally Posted by Neckshot

tap tap into forehead

Come on Neckshot, were you not paying attention? Three shots mate. Heart, head, head. All in quick succession.

Originally Posted by Neckshot

some of you guys are talking hypothetical bullshit! were all gonna act diff and untill your in that situation your just guessing.

Originally Posted by Tussock

Ordinary people actually do extremely well if they are mentally prepared.

They can do appallingly badly if they are not.

And that really is the key. The "average, ordinary" person out there is NOT mentally prepared. The are situationally unaware. But it is these kinds of people who we are talking about arming with concealed pistols.

Not Beavis who is going to train like crazy, or Tussock who is supremely confident, it is Moe and Joe who may or may not have control over their emotions, may or may not be drunk or stoned etc.

Some of you guys seem to find the prospect of a random violent criminal scary enough to want to go down the route of CCW. I've lived in a place where this was the norm, it is not fun... There are negative and positive sides to each argument. For each life saved story Tussock has, I am sure we can find a child killed by finding his dads poorly secured firearm, or daughter shot mistakenly as she crept into the house long after her curfew story.

I find the prospect of the "average" citizen out there being armed just as scary or even scarier than the "random active shooter"

Originally Posted by Tussock

I dont recall suggesting we hand them out at street corners. Also, my "save just one life" was a reversal of the statement used regarding gun restrictions. It was to demonstrate that the "save just one life" emotive rhetoric can be used both ways, as you have just correctly pointed out.

But you did comment about your view of the (poor) firearm skills of the police, didn't you ? Now they have specific training both with firearms and with dealing with crisis situations, and get to practice (at least the people skills side) almost daily. Be interesting to hear what training regime you propose and would be willing to accept for Joe Blogs before he is allowed CCW, seeing as you don't seem to be a fan of "government control".

Originally Posted by Tussock

I would suggest if the average citizen is not mentally prepared for adversity, it is because society has failed them. Not because the average person is incompetent.

Or you could say the average citizen has actually failed society, depends on how you view life Tussock

Originally Posted by Tussock

Instead of looking at America, explain how Ethiopia can have concealed carry, and there is virtually no gun crime?

You sure you want to do this ?

Guns in Ethiopia: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

Rate of privately owned firearms : Ethiopia is ranked at 174 out of 178 countries...

Tussock, with all due respect, you are talking bullshit You want to hold Ethiopia up as an positive example ? What are you smoking mate ? Human rights, governance etc. Are you serious

Originally Posted by ebf

sidney, dude ! come on...

the argument they are putting forward is like saying well it's ok for me to drive at 200 km/h because if you don't want to then you don't have to... actions have consequences. saying something like CCW is ok, coz you dont have to do it if you dont want to completely ignores the majority of the population that specifically do not want every second or third person walking around with a concealed firearm. and forget about tactical or self-defense training, what most folks need is to train the muscle between their ears to think clearly and calmly during a crisis.

i am more than happy living in a society where we have a small armed police force, responsible for maintaining order, as opposed to every tom, dick and harry walking around packing. the cops here are very aware of the extremely serious repercussions of shooting someone, and in the majority of cases would rather try to calm the situation than escalate it. that is the balance I prefer, like I said early on, there are loads of places around the globe where you can live with alternate regimes, personally the setup in NZ works fine for me

Please feel free to continue offering opinion not subject to you own advice then ...Doesn't matter what people want, that is purely a emotional cultural response...

The issue as debated which you completely have missed, is that the antis use exactly the same argument that could be used to promote CCW. And guess what... they are both correct.. but where the balance may fall in terms of loss of life, or deterioration of society is entirely debatable.

What we end up with as a result may or may not be desirable, and we currently don't choose to go down that road. Personally I don't want to. The process of the shift is often worse than either position. I was a police officer, I left the police in 1990 partially because I believed that we were rapidly heading towards having to be armed as a matter of course..that would have changed the dynamic of interaction with the public to such an extent that I was unwilling to stay... thankfully I am still wrong about that happening..

Having an armed population is unlikely to promote a more trusting culture, as evidenced by the paranoia exhibited by the average american. However on the other hand attempting to deny people the lawful right or the ability to protect your own person or life, or the life of any innocent that you are capable of protecting - is unconscionable. And please don't not assume that the police can or even want to achieve that these days in this country. Response and prevention is a lot further down the list than collecting traffic revenue, and suppressing response from those trying to protect themselves.

Whether you understand it or not, these are the two realities that exist. Reconciling them is the issue. Thats when it gets difficult..

+1 Tussock, I worry about my partners safety more than my own