Update: Fat Labs at Westminster | SlimDoggy
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That black and choc look horrific they are heading the way of the basset hound, I hate choc labs in nz as they all look inbred and yet the owners let them keep their clackers "Cos choc is so cute" so they are all humpers trying to pass on their throwback genes. And I'm not even a crazy dog breeder just a black lab owner with a fixed but "attractive lab" apparently as males keep trying it on.
yes labs should be athletic,as are the working strains that are available here. gundogs breeding should not be in the hands of those who have no real regard for working ability, ie. those whose sole interest is beauty shows/fashion.
Couldn't agree more. The state of Labs in NZ is abysmal!!!
English working lines all the way!
Good Labs are athletes. This guys pedigree is awesome, his athletism bears it out. 12 months old.
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That lab in your pictures Clark looks just like my 2 year old lab! ours is out of Skeinvalley.
Labs are easy to keep at the right weight.
If they are looking to skinny let them look at the Tux bag for an extra 9 seconds.
To fat? Then they are only allowed a three second look.
If your Lab gets fat - don’t you think it might have something to do with the amount of food and exercise you give it - not many Labs have free access to exercise or to the food bin - their owner is in control - just balance food and exercise to suit your Lab - a bit like humans really - you not only have the problem with lack of exercise but also the problem of how much food and booze you eat and drink :beer:
Black, Yellow or Chocolate Labs - they all have the same needs of their owner controlling food and exercise - there are plenty of examples of fat dogs of all colour and type
I have had 35 years of Yellow Labs and now 6 years of a Chocolate Lab - sure they/he can put on weight and so can I if the weather packs up and we can’t get out as much - I can take him down to the Vet and weigh him or I can run my hand over his ribs to check his condition
No doubt about it Ruff - that Black Lab looks very athletic - and so does yours Dougie
The dogs depicted at Crufts are not fat labradors...they are show labradors...:) I have had judges tell me that my dogs are too muscular...both in the working and gundog group classes...one stated that he did not care whether the dog was a working dog or not it was not in "show condition"...
That judge shouldn't be allowed to judge.
They are fat labradors, I show ours my husband hunts them I would not want one like that in my kennels, the dogs need to be fit for purpose, I think the problem is for some bigger is better, more bone , more substance ( fat ) more coat, completely incorrect, and I lay the blame squarely on the judges, they put these dogs up so some breeders will breed for what the judge is placing. Not all show labradors look like that in fact very few in NZ do.
I agree...but this is how it is out there in the show world...the only reason I was showing my dogs was to give the breeders something back...but after negative comments from judges about them re musculature etc you end up not going, the entry fee will buy a few good lattes!!! I would much rather, after being told by a judge that they did not even know what breed of dog my Epagneul Breton was and therefore would not award him the challenge, to give it all away and go hunting instead...nothing beats being in the wilderness with a fine gundog doing what he was intended to do...
You got that right EeeBee
It's funny you say that EBs, I'd like to ask a question as I know nothing of shows having attended one (and plan to keep it at that number).. I was at the petrol station the other day and the lady let a Brittany out to pee in the park opposite. She was on the way to a show or some such in Gisborne and we got talking about brittanies. It appears her one was a show champion, which even with my untrained eye was a pretty poor example. Certainly not the continental-type Breton I'm used to seeing.. Anyway, I'd imagine turning up with a minority breed would make for easy bench wins wouldn't it? How can you compare dogs if its the only one there?
Good question @Pointer...well, they are SUPPOSED to judge to the breed standard!!!...as in, does this example meet the tenets of the breed standard more/less than the next, and so on...the difficulty for judges in this country is that the exhibits are either what some call NZ Brittanys or American type...the majority of Brittanys here are a mix of both types...so when you show an EB, most judges will not know what they are looking at...so to be fair to them, I guess you can sort of understand why a judge would not give my male a challenge...simply because the dog just does not look like anything the judge had seen before...but back to the subject!!!! A minority breed in my experience is rarely ever put up in the group line up...I feel that it is because some judges possibly feel that it is probably better to take the safe option, even if in their mind and hearts the minority breed animal is superior and is truly correct to the breed standards. Then there was that incident in Sydney...when an European judge disqualified every Brittany in the ring because none were correct to standard...he told my spaniel friend, well that is that, I will never be asked to judge here again!!
As an addend to the above...I am not knocking the show people per se...it is simply that if you do have a minority breed, you will have to accept that most judges will not be familiar with your minority breed, or go to shows where there are European judges who do know...
or better still go to a versatile test where your dog is benched by the same 3 judges who just watched it work.
had the show question bought up again for my dogs, that was the answer i gave.
i think you are able to test under the jghv format tori, includes breed show.
yes Judges should judge to the breed standard, but they all interpret the standard differently, in the Case of the Labrador breed Standard in the first 3 lines of general appearance in every standard I have read, NZ Aust, UK, FCI, Swedish etc, the word Broad is used 3 times, for example The UK general appearance says "Strongly built, short coupled, very active; broad in skull; broad and deep through chest and ribs; broad and strong over loins and hindquarters. " Now while the fat Labradors are FAT, and don't adhere to the standard I don't think many of the "field Labradors" would meet the Breed Standard either. I do think a Labrador should be capable of doing both show and hunting and that is the problem, MOST show dogs will hunt but very few ( if any) field type Labradors would do OK in the ring.If I can work out how to post photos I will post a couple of "show" Labradors out hunting
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These were taken while out hunting, unfortunately my husband hates me going hunting with him because I take the camera and like to slow the action down to get photos, these are all working dogs but are also all show Champions, one bred in NZ the other two Europe.
the division between a working lab and a show example is best explained by talking about two standards, rather than just the one.
both types are more than capable enough to suit the average kiwi duck shooter, picking up a few dozen ducks a year and pushing out the odd rooster, quail or rabbit is not rocket science in canine terms.... up the working environment, like driven shoots 2-3 times a week and you will see why the split is there, putting a show title on any dog is a sport in it's own right, and there are many breeders with a foot in both camps.
You are correct, but to me there should not be 2 standards, both camps ( Show and Hunting) need to up their game and breed to as close as possible to the one standard, I guess it is also a question of what you want from your dogs, do you want a dog that never stops, never has much down time is always ready for action 12 months of the year full on 100% of the time, one that would go completely insane if left in a kennel for a couple of days ( not that I am advocating this) because of work commitments etc etc etc, or do you want one that will retrieve all the birds you shoot, track a deer/pig etc not use the kids as skittles, is quite happy to go hunting as often as you want to go but is equally just as happy to spend time with the family if unable to get out for a hunt, one is much easier to live with, having said all that most of my pups go to hunters, god forbid some are even trialing. As for driven hunts our son used his dog on these hunts completely show bred, again my argument ( if you call it that) is while his dog could work these hunt's every week he would have been equally at home in the show ring, this to me is the mark of a true Labrador .
Great to have you on the forum Ducdog - it will be great to have a person with dual purpose Labs in mind
I love the look of your dogs - real class for the show ring and obviously very powerful for hunting
Not sure what sort of dogs Greg Duley had on his TV show - but it amazed me how much weight they were carrying in their back packs and the sort of country he took them through - they seemed to be very powerful animals
he has a Chesapeake.
most of the fence jumping English labs I've seen do all that and can still put in a solid weeks work...all had an off switch.
I would say given a full work load even a show lab would soon be non standard as they would soon change once a few ribs start showing.... but I would also expect the pedigree to show up and the dog could break down or quit.
Guess mine aren't normal then, as they don't quit they just keep going, but I want a Labrador that can do it all, as for breaking down , it is actually a field bred Lab I would expect to break down first, simply because show lines have more health tests as a rule done on them , some field lines wouldn't know what a hip or elbow score was or are never tested for PRA or EIC. I am told in NZ EIC tends to be more prevalent in the field lines than the show lines again simply because some out there don't test. I do so love the ads that say they don't health test their dogs because they have never had a problem, the only ad that should be is a TUI ad. At the end of the day there is no right or wrong answer just peoples personal preference as to what they want to hunt with and live with.
of the lines I have been looking at for a few years now, all health test, the health testing is the first thing tooted by the show side I might add, both blame the other for not testing.... I suppose the field lines you mention need to be split into the actual working lines and the common and I hate to say it, back yard specials.
EIC testing is gaining ground with many of the top uk working kennels and it is great to see.
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one would hope that the pup buyers are insisting on buying from EIC tested parents, breeders can't hide it if the market starts asking for it.
How come Bernies dog doesn't fall and hit the ceiling?
Labs were developed to sit quiet and retrieve, their body shape and coat and fat tail is all part of keeping warm in the water. The big round ribs give the body shape. They are not for work as spaniels and pointers. In the show ring many are just over weight because the owner thinks fat is substance, which it is not. The judges many are not gundog owners, or if they are just show gundog owners, they see the same type of dog in front of them over and over and think this must be the right type. They do have to sit exams which involve bone structure of a dog, terminology and questions on the standards of the group they are sitting and finally an exam where they must judge dogs and place them in order and give reasons why they did so to the examiners. Still, they might be a toy or utility breed person who wants another group so when they judge gundogs it is not what they really hold an interest in. Shows are a competition and the judge gets 1-2min to evaluate each dog, so a good breeder should be doing their own evaluations and not relying on what a judge puts up at a show. Same with field trials. You can see good and average but meeting the dogs that can be reversed.
on any driven shoot, they have limited time to sweep the end of the drive and collect runners as well as working behind the guns during the drive, as well as picking up driven duck, and for some working on the moors behind the pointers, in part they are required to sit at heel but a full day 2-3 times a week plus being used in the beating line the dogs end up looking like greyhounds.... as they do even being used weekly for upland and waterfowl work by keen shooters.
Had a good lab rabbiting. Big boof headed bastard he was to, worked out to maybe forty metres tops. Ate like a big boof headed lab too. But he could afford to as he worked it off. And he worked hard and well.
Funny thing was the people I got him off had him as standard lab, a fat bastard.
I'll add to that, one good one out of the maybe 6-8 I've had.
That judge should not be judging. They all get a sheet before the show advising the breeds being shown under them and should read up on the standard. To refuse a challenge because the judge didn't know the breed tells you that the judge is lazy.
No working dog should be penalised for being muscular. My sister stopped showing her Bullmastiff because she was told he was too muscular and not carrying enough condition i.e. not fat enough.
The judge should know the breed and consider if the dog is capable of doing the work it was bred for - most show dogs aren't capable of fulfilling their original purpose.
Yes, with a minority breed it is easy to get the 8 challenge points. But the dog should be a reasonable example of its breed. Unfortunately very few judges are brave enough to refuse to give the dog a challenge point.
That is why I feel, @HF1, that more people with minority breeds should attend ribbon parades where you give trainee judges the opportunity to see examples of the breed. Certainly there is no challenge point to possibly win, but at least the judge will know for next time!!