Thread: Very interesting food for thought.

Originally Posted by kawhia

on the hill proves one side, any breeder aims for that first and foremost.
on the breeding side for some breeds the X ray is a huge part of the process.
we can hip score and at least see the science side, the huntaway example does show despite what the x rays show the dogs are still doing the job.

the working cocker has been going through a long period of revival in the uk, sadly inbreeding and pet breeding has seen the need to genetic test now.

the breed clubs feeding into the NZKC will advise on there HD status, the only measure we are looking for is the breed average, is it going up or down ?
the numbers actually being scanned did not appear to be increasing for most breeds compared to numbers whelped reagrdless.
compare that to a regulated breeding programme like the german breeds where everything gets scanned and the system works well.

Yes, many breeders use x-rays even though the reality and science shows it is very inexact and making no difference to anything. Your last sentence is an indicator, to me at least, why you are hanging on so hard to this... my suspicion is, as indicated above, it's as much about marketing as it is genuine orthopedic issues.

The cockers "revival"? The cocker has been popular throughout in the UK and has always been a part of the shooting fabric and as significant as the springer. It is here in NZ that the upsurge in popularity, primarily among triallists, has occurred and the numbers here still do not require testing as your own website attests. Let's not use smoke and mirrors to cloud this significant issue. I do understand it is in your interest to endorse the testing as you've been an advocate of it for so long, but if faced with the facts you have the opportunity to be a leader in the breeding field of putting more importance on what is real than simply being one of the followers. The popularity of the springer and cocker has remained pretty constant since the inception and both have always been exceedingly common in the shooting fields of the UK. The physical soundness of the breeds is determined in the field and that continues. You imply change where there has been none. Yes since Bob Whitehead brought in the working cockers there has more interest in them but there numbers here remain extremely small, definitely not the case in the UK.

marketing or breed requirements ?
we breed under the German system so it's a requirement not just hips, shoulders and elbows too, we want to stay in the system so will continue to do so.... as do the pup owners wanting to complete the jghv tests.
we can not 'don't hip score' so orthopedic soundness is pretty bloody obvious when you see the results.

spaniels or labs you will see alot more health testing coming out of the UK for the working lines, endorsed by the trials world so don't get hung up on marketing bullshit and move with the times.

{will find spaniel rego figures from the uk to show it may not be as constant as you state}

like any working breed i would expect the cull rate to be high and not just for lack of working ability.

i saw plenty of puppy culling anything runty obviously not right and a lot of bitch pups [which nobody wanted] dogs breed for a pup for themselves and the odd mate or 3 if either parents had any ability.
where i saw some change is when hunterways and heading dogs got to the 5000 and 10,000 dollar mark respectivly then lots kept pups that mightnt have usually got kept for the chance of a payday.culling went out the window as long as the station was still paying for the grub
especially when you could get 80 buks for a dog that just looked the part or 150 for one that showed eye or barked in stocks general direction .
a dog running in the hunterways case or started in the heading dogs could be 250 t0 350 started.
heading dogs did and still command rediculous money but even tho i played the game a bit i never saw hd in mix.
pet border collies passed off as working bred sure a mate even brought a heading dog the sheep couldnt see over tussock it was that small.
resold to the hawkes bay for a small profit after i gave him what he payed for it.
im leaning with ruff in indiscriminate breeding and unsuitable dogs kept alive for a payday may be factors.
can testing immature dogs give you a real view of what might be a gradual thru to an after maturity degeneration??
yes i get people paying top dollar want some assurance theyre getting what theyre paying for but if the test is flawed or incomplete sooner or later everybody will suffer most especially the poor mutts.
could hd have krept in thru the labs desire to shag everything that moves and dogs from these trysts kept rebreed so on and so on??

You can find a statistic to suits your ends Jason, it still misses the point. I accept you are bound by regulation to test under the German system, but that doesn't surprise me, despite the evidence, hip testing is still extremely widely and generally accepted, I absolutely accept you must do it, I question if it is of any benefit at all.

Working spaniels and show spaniels are all lumped under one breed remember. As for moving with times, the outdated, ineffective x-ray system which has done nothing to change anything about hip diplasia is now about 4 decades old, my contention is it is about time people looked at the overwhelming facts and moved with the times.

Here's some more info to consider... (The point of all this is to highlight that there is very little definitive in any way shape or form when it comes to HD.!
Bad hips and knees: Is it hip dysplasia or a torn cruciate ligament?

Interesting that this study concludes....


Wayne H. Riser, W. Harker Rhodes, and Charles D. Newton


Section One: Theories of Pathogenesis

Canine hip dysplasia is a complex disease. It is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease. The degree of involvement varies from minute changes in bone structure to total destruction of the hip joint. Investigators have searched intensively for genetic, chemical, and metabolic defects, but the cause has remained obscure.

Hip dysplasia affects humans and all other domestic mammals. In humans, 1.3 children in 1000 are affected. In dogs the prevalence may run over 50% in large dogs if control measures have not been practiced. Few data are available on the prevalence of hip dysplasia in other mammals, but it is thought to be low. The disease is undoubtedly rare in undomesticated animals.

No specific genetic pattern of inheritance has been demonstrated in this variable disease. It has been demonstrated that both genetic and environmental influences contribute to development, regardless of the species affected.(15,31, 32,40,74,76) Consequently, the disease has been designated as polygenic or multigenic.(28) As in most polygenic diseases, there are both major and minor causative factors. There is no evidence that a primary defect of bone exists but rather the disease is a failure of the muscles and other soft tissues to hold the hip joint in full congruity.(31,32) This is further supported by the fact that bony dysplasia can be increased, decreased, or prevented by controlling the degree of joint instability and incongruity.(53) No other malformations are associated with the disease.(79) A causal relationship between muscles and soft tissue defects or pathologic changes other than lack of muscle mass or strength has not been established.(40,41)

Experimentally, hip dysplasia may be produced in many ways.(43,56,74,76,87,88) These include any circumstances that contribute to an unstable hip joint, namely, adductor forces, lack of muscle strength, chemical relaxation of the pelvic soft tissues, traumatic injury to the hip joint, and overloading of the joint by weight. Hip dysplasia is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease.

What I begin to find as I research more and more is that they reason we see such a low incidence in working breeds is the strength and development of muscle, ligaments etc in having a high level of fitness. Wirehair may have been closer to the truth than I first thought. It may well be that it is not that the working breeds are genetically free of HD, but simply properly developed and fit.

The fact we know bugger all remains and anyone trying to claim something definitive in its regard is going against all of the scientific information we have at hand.

Originally Posted by Ruff

You can find a statistic to suits your ends Jason, it still misses the point. I accept you are bound by regulation to test under the German system, but that doesn't surprise me, despite the evidence, hip testing is still extremely widely and generally accepted, I absolutely accept you must do it, I question if it is of any benefit at all.

Working spaniels and show spaniels are all lumped under one breed remember. As for moving with times, the outdated, ineffective x-ray system which has done nothing to change anything about hip diplasia is now about 4 decades old, my contention is it is about time people looked at the overwhelming facts and moved with the times.

Here's some more info to consider... (The point of all this is to highlight that there is very little definitive in any way shape or form when it comes to HD.!
Bad hips and knees: Is it hip dysplasia or a torn cruciate ligament?

Interesting that this study concludes....


Wayne H. Riser, W. Harker Rhodes, and Charles D. Newton


Section One: Theories of Pathogenesis

Canine hip dysplasia is a complex disease. It is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease. The degree of involvement varies from minute changes in bone structure to total destruction of the hip joint. Investigators have searched intensively for genetic, chemical, and metabolic defects, but the cause has remained obscure.

Hip dysplasia affects humans and all other domestic mammals. In humans, 1.3 children in 1000 are affected. In dogs the prevalence may run over 50% in large dogs if control measures have not been practiced. Few data are available on the prevalence of hip dysplasia in other mammals, but it is thought to be low. The disease is undoubtedly rare in undomesticated animals.

No specific genetic pattern of inheritance has been demonstrated in this variable disease. It has been demonstrated that both genetic and environmental influences contribute to development, regardless of the species affected.(15,31, 32,40,74,76) Consequently, the disease has been designated as polygenic or multigenic.(28) As in most polygenic diseases, there are both major and minor causative factors. There is no evidence that a primary defect of bone exists but rather the disease is a failure of the muscles and other soft tissues to hold the hip joint in full congruity.(31,32) This is further supported by the fact that bony dysplasia can be increased, decreased, or prevented by controlling the degree of joint instability and incongruity.(53) No other malformations are associated with the disease.(79) A causal relationship between muscles and soft tissue defects or pathologic changes other than lack of muscle mass or strength has not been established.(40,41)

Experimentally, hip dysplasia may be produced in many ways.(43,56,74,76,87,88) These include any circumstances that contribute to an unstable hip joint, namely, adductor forces, lack of muscle strength, chemical relaxation of the pelvic soft tissues, traumatic injury to the hip joint, and overloading of the joint by weight. Hip dysplasia is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease.

What I begin to find as I research more and more is that they reason we see such a low incidence in working breeds is the strength and development of muscle, ligaments etc in having a high level of fitness. Wirehair may have been closer to the truth than I first thought. It may well be that it is not that the working breeds are genetically free of HD, but simply properly developed and fit.

The fact we know bugger all remains and anyone trying to claim something definitive in its regard is going against all of the scientific information we have at hand.

Your highlighted bit is due to the fact that the heritable portion of HD is polygenetic, not the fact that there is no genetic connection. That makes it more compicated than a simple "if you have this (single) gene you will get HD": and hence not fully understood - yet.
As far as HD testing, it is also just a case of science working like it should and improvements being made- the Penn hip score method is now considered superior for assessing breeding dogs.

Originally Posted by ethos

Your highlighted bit is due to the fact that the heritable portion of HD is polygenetic, not the fact that there is no genetic connection. That makes it more compicated than a simple "if you have this (single) gene you will get HD": and hence not fully understood - yet.
As far as HD testing, it is also just a case of science working like it should and improvements being made- the Penn hip score method is now considered superior for assessing breeding dogs.

Understood and agreed. However, I would make the point the PENNHIP system is superior by virtue of the fact the first system had no use whatsoever, which still leaves us to ascertain to what level PENNHIP offers that much more. Time will tell if the dogs improve, but I doubt that can happen when so many dogs are labeled as champions without having to do as much as a 15 minute work out on the hill. If the field and the hill is the test, weaknesses will soon be apparent and culled by the astute breeder.

If you work a working dog then the field will test its soundness, if you do not work the dog then you need a vet to tell you that what you are doing is OK, and that is not completely reliable as it requires assumptions and predictions... The hill does not. They do or they don't!

A number of environmental factors can affect the incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs - NVH

I really like this research, as far as the breed I am involved in I would be far more concerned with elbow issues rather thank hip problems, while the average hip score in Labradors has come down over the years this doesn't guarantee that all puppies will be free of the genetic part of the equation, as yet there is no DNA test for that, I don't use Penn hip and am unlikely to do so , I know people do use it and are convinced it is the best thing ever however I have asked for but not yet received any INDEPENDENT research that isn't either done by Penn hip or commissioned by Penn hip that Penn hip is in fact better or that Penn hip scored dogs do then go onto produce puppies with a lower incidence of HD . However if someone here can point me in that direction I would be happy to have a read.

It remains an interesting and worthwhile discussion/debate!

It wouldn't even be hard to do a trial. Cross a couple of prone dogs, rare some each way. The only real issue is how hit and miss HD is, what is the earliest age they can be tested for it?

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

It wouldn't even be hard to do a trial. Cross a couple of prone dogs, rare some each way. The only real issue is how hit and miss HD is, what is the earliest age they can be tested for it?

I think that after 50 years it i safe to assume it's not that simple. My concern is, it may be... perhaps it is being complicated beyond recognition... right now, who knows?????

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

and the nz results

hip dysplasia screening in dogs nz

http://www.nzva.org.nz/sites/default...2013%20Dec.pdf

None of that makes any change to what I have stated for me. I've said my bit.

NZVA? No vested interest there.

Very good questions! (Bear in mind I am deliberately being tongue in cheek with some of my ideas and am not, deliberately, trying to be a smart-arse)


I don't think when they train vets they take the students into a darkened soundproof room and explain the scam they have run over HD for years). So I do believe many vets will believe their training and believe what they are doing is valid. I come from the opposite side of things, instead of medical I am a behaviorist and I will honestly state much of what is taught in vet schools regarding behavior is absolute hogwash. Most of us will be aware the majority of vets are the worst source for training advice. I mention that just to point out that they are not God.

I do believe the X-Ray can and does show HD once a dog is effected and debilitated by it, we can find the x-rays of those online. What an x-ray will never show, though I believe is critical is the cartilage which surrounds the hip joint and the muscle and ligaments required to hold the ball into any socket joint, HD or not. What I question is whether X-Rays show any relevance to potential to be effected by HD or any potential to pass it on or not. There seems to two definite trains of thought... 1) It is Hereditary and 2 it is not... who do we believe?

The question regarding breed averages did require some thought. I don;t believe the breed averages show any genetic hereditary trait. We could randomly pick 4 different groups of multi breed dogs, average them and come up with differing numbers. There could well be commonality within breeds without it being hereditary. I wasn't surprised to see Bull Mastiffs at the top of the heap, one of the heaviest dogs around. The wolfhound while being a very leggy and large dog overall is not disproportionately heavy to it's overall size.

Keep in mind I am not saying "This is the last word on HD"... quite the opposite... it seems no one can give any definitive answers. Maybe it is my Scottish background but I'm buggered if I'll fork out cash for a testing system that has shown no value or success over 4 decades. Even more so when I have never seen a single example of it in my chosen breed in over 35 or more years of working with them.

What is 'cocker rage’?

Originally Posted by EeeBees

What is 'cocker rage’?

A spaniel whose owner doesn't hit very much.