That's OK, were all adults here. We agree on most things, about time we found something not to agree on :) will write a novel tonight. It's not easy on a phone
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That's OK, were all adults here. We agree on most things, about time we found something not to agree on :) will write a novel tonight. It's not easy on a phone
Just grab a bottle of single malt and come over for a spirited discussion! :D
Not a bad plan when I get back. I won't bring that terrible beer this time :sick:
We were actually discussing matters relating to @Pointer getting old and cynical and it has all turned to alcoholic beverages...:D:D ye gads...still I suppose it all beats an on going dirge on the matter of overpriced, underachieving canines bred by those who may have never witnessed their chosen breed doing what the breed was developed for in the first place...
Yes Tori.... Ummm... I wasn't meaning people who had never seen it, or even those who have seen a bit of it, or a lot of it... I was referring to those who didnt focus 100% of their breeding decisions on the performance of a hunting dog as a hunting dog... ANYTHING else is a compromise, a con job, and based on BS. I don;t need or want a show pony that hunts. I want a hunting dog that hunts, and NOTHING less.
...and I don't think that should cost an arm and a leg.
This thread has driven me to drink
Well, Im getting old and cylindrical. :)
My first decent gundog cost me two weeks wages, at the time it was a shitload of money to blow on a pup when I could get one from the many dogs for sale ads in the Saturday paper, that pup lasted til he was 14 despite suffering from what is now known as EIC.
At the time you could buy Winchester super x for $12 and falcon ammo was half that, I made do with various Russian and cheap Italian guns that also cost a few weeks wages, then bought a gun that cost me many months wages but that's not my point.
What I am trying to say is spending a fair price in today's money is actually still only a few weeks wages.
Well, the show people might get away with the little/biggish fibs etc but when you only sell puppies to hunters you cannot pull any wool over any eyes because the proof is truly in the pudding...the clouds of talcum powder wafting in the down wind at the shows says alot...and of course they will never sell any pup which they think could get to Best of Group, Best whatever in show...however, to me, no matter what, the puppies must be in standard and to me that means adhesion to the French standard...and yes, @Pointer, I agree, it should not cost an arm and a leg...:)
As I say our prices here are very low. I would like to see a more performance based system. Where price isn't based on trends of breeds or rarity but on ability. The example of the prices paid for cross breeds is very valid and in most cases ridiculous. I gave Chris Hill a gentle ribbing when he bred a litter of "Spanadoors". They were, as it turned out, little rippers of hunting dogs, not much use from a breeding point of view, but he certainly got his money out of them, without any NZKC costs etc... I inquired if "Spanadoor" was an old english name for "left the bloody gate open". In all fairness it was a deliberate mating, but he did laugh. Like horses.... bring in a high faluting stallion and stand him at stud if he doesn't produce proven performers by the time they are three you'll be lucky to give his services and progeny away... BUT if they perform you'll need to win lotto to own one. I would agree that there are an awful lot of dogs being over priced, as I said earlier, I could have bred 4 litters a year of mediocrity and sold the pups for $800 each and made more money than I did by breeding one very good litter in 20 plus years and charging a premium for that time learning the lines, the dogs in those lines, taking note of how the Gurus bred etc... It's not about the individual cost but what you get for that.
A short putt should have been all that was needed! :D
You lot wanna head up around Queenstown, there's all kinds of doddle dogs and they all cost megabucks.
I've got a GWP here I was given as a 16 or so month old, never been out of the back yard at that point or handled or trained at all. She's now rising three and has finally started to work, and work bloody well. Cost $0. Might even see if I can put some sides on soon as it's now worth doing. Not papered but who gives a shit. Did I mention the cost?
As for registration. It HAS to go independent.
oh what a sheltered life you lead mikee;)
i know 3 puppy farmers with in a 20 mile radius :O_O:
shite is shite imported or otherwise you,d hope someone importing would want to bring in the best available rather than just the best they can afford to import.Quote:
Some dogs are worth a high price but just being an import or by an import is not a good enough reason.
lies and ripoffs in dog selling '''well i never'''
you can trace the start of rediculous working dog prices to around the start of ''the dog show''on tv every 2nd pup was by sorensens fake jimmy hays doug or rex berkanns heading dogs then it went on to pig dogs with the advent of money hunting competitions:oh noes:
im tearing up at the memory of jimmy hay telling doug [the alsatian]not to worry bout the mongrel wairarapa romneys at alfredton dog trials between them they,d educate them.:yaeh am not durnk:Quote:
J E Hay Doug 193.5
P H Sorensen Fake 193.25
Sure. I have only seen four examples of the particular breed in question so not a huge sample but considering they are all from the same source it counts for something. One didn't retrieve, the other had little point and one had health issues.
Your turn now, "define a well bred litter bred on lifting the bar" as everyone uses that line
i was asking more of a general opinion not just this particular breed, as i was thinking shit the wastage or average on pointers must be pretty high and low to come at that comment.
{i know it isn't}
i cant comment of the state of the breed in question, other than they were one of the highest to attend the nzvhdta testing back when i was involved in it and they did set the bar for everyone else at the time.....{although i think my own kennel produced a higher average}
its easy to write off certain breeds and kennels as a no go area, based on personal experience, we all do it.
to answer your question you need a format to gauge where the working ability sits, be it actually working, field trials or a testing system, it's not hard to see dogs who do well in the field also clean up in the off season in one or the other and those that don't...........it's up to the breeders to set the bar, breeding for better than average should be the end game, the chances of getting that dog of a life time are that much greater.
I wouldnt say I have written them off, the fourth one I saw was very good bordering on excellent, on the two times I hunted with him, once on deer and once on upland. I very seriously considered one after his performance.
I agree on importing and health testing not being a valid excuse. By our geographical essence importing is a necessity, can't avoid it. As for health testing, if you brave enough to breed a breed of dogs riddled with health problems then you better be prepared to wear it. So if import price or parents or health testing isn't a valid excuse for high pricing, according to other members here, then the say so that the dogs in the pedigree are excellent is? On that subject would you pay more for say, a person who has one litter loosely bred on a famous dog or some one who has been in their line of for decades consistently producing a type of dog?
There is a dog in my kennel, who came from a breeder who has been in that line of dogs since the early 80s. His pedigree wouldn't look put of place on a UK grouse moor, and is loosely line bred on greats of the breed both here in NZ and UK. This dog cost $900, and the breeder has a waiting list arms length long because they only breed for their own replacements.
He is true to his breeding, his performance is typical of his family.
The second dog I'll mention is no longer with me, he is someone's running partner in Melbourne in his old age. I paid twice the above amount for this dog, on the say so that his European ancestors were all fantastic and highly awarded in tests. This dog turned out no better, and in some places worse, than the previous examples I had owned in the breed. I had fallen for the hype. Hence I am wary of spin doctors.
I visited a breeder once, who had been in his line 6-7 generations both sides, that was consistently producing dogs that excelled in their intended use, in fact he had two sisters that year place first and third in the national championship on quail in Aussie. Without knowing the guy at all, when he took me out to his kennels to view his dogs he started with "I'll tell you what I don't like about my dogs" he demonstrated honesty about his line from the start, detailing both performance and health issues he wants to correct. The good points of his kennel spoke for themselves. I spent a afternoon behind those sisters and their immediate family on quail that left me grinning from ear to ear. Everything he told me about them they demonstrated. This is a man of integrity, an honest man who I would buy a dog from any day and would pay a premium to do so yet he asked a modest price per dog.
As for my spin doctor mate? Not breeding anymore. Ripped too many off!
Anyway I'm way off track. I'll ask an open question to all, would anyone buy a dog on pedigree alone?
Was it the wire haired vizsla ?
No but thats a good point. That thing was overall better than my smooth haired vizsla, bred by someone who had no clue!
I've deliberately left breeds and breeders names out of this thread as it isn't a name and shame session, those details arent important. I'm more interested in the reasoning behind the price rises in gundog puppies. The feedback had been interesting so far.
The rise has hardly been a sudden occurrence, it didn't happen overnight.
Where do you see it ending? Driving people away from pedigree dogs?
Off topic, but I used to compete and liberate at Alfredton, Great times. Remember Jim very well. Neil Harvey was another hard case who I used to travel with. Neil was quite bandy, and at the short head pen once he was stretched out at the gate and a sheep broke, and shot straight between his legs :) Another time at Pongaroa there was a swede crop close to the start at the short head, and as Neil walked out to compete he pulled a swede and biffed it in the pen as he walked past. :)
Carry on chaps.
I think the NZKC and the imploding of the NZGTA will see that, it will balance out in regards to our working dogs.
Yes the price has jumped up and will likely stay where they are now, they are pretty much at the same level as the buying in the Uk and Europe with the exchange rate etc, if we have moved away from inbred non performing and non working examples of any breed then I call that progress not greed....I don't buy the tiny group of Islands at the bottom of the world excuse.
OK I'll bite :)
Aside from not driving an Audi : the VD hip xrays examined by a panel of experts used for screening for HD for years was the best tool we had even though I agree it has not been shown to make a big difference (shown by scientidic method the same way the scheme was devised in the first instance). Penn hip certainly appears more promising for now.
Money wise, Ive worked in a bunch of practices here and in Aussie, I can think of one or two which might have made decent profit on HD xrays mostly its actually fairly cost neutral or even a loss, after anaesthetic, positioning repeat xray with 2 people and paper work its not a big money spinner - you could spey a few bitches, sew up a few pig dogs or do a simple orthopaedic procedure in the same time. Yes its all money and nobody is made of it for sure.
Penn hip also costs $$ itwas blardy expensive to train for and buy the gear for initially being a copyright procedure which also had to be passed on. Costs for Penn training and gear are now coming down, happily.
Anyways Im never going to win a vet argument with the internet on charging :) but be aware what you perceive as a waste of a lot of money is not done for fun at the other end either!
Dont get me started on charging for dogs being exported....
So if you don't buy it, what's the excuse for paying European prices here?
If you buy a pup with the purchase price as the deciding factor, and let's face it we all have different budgets and needs then that is all good in my book, they all cost the same to feed and register year in year out.
For the breed concerned they have been selling at the high since they got here, if they were priced wrong they simply wouldn't sell.
Funny thing is if I was in the market for a springer from that line I would pay it.
Likewise if I was in the market for a pointer I would pay what ever the going rate is.....in the uk they are a few hundred pounds.
The rather awkward and sad thing about the prices being charged by some is that for those of us who feel that a puppy going to a hunter who will have the dog hunting as the dog should and needs to be, could be detrimental to those of us who do not charge a fortune for the puppies...could there eventually be a perception that if my puppies are sold at a price much less than the next breeder means my puppies are inferior??...we all know how the human psychy works. It is the owner and his/her care and aspirations with and for the puppy which means a helleva lot more to me than coin...
I've read this thread with interest and was previously going to reply in this vein but thought the better of it
However,
Yes it will, Neither I nor most I know could either afford or justify 2k for a pup
it's unfortunate but it may well be that my next dog will be one from out the back, you know mates got a litter
looks like a lab, probably is somewhat,got that bit of white on her, but heck, she'll fetch.
Sad but..................
its damn difficult. Take my dog as an example. The breed has moved on a lot since I got her, and no doubt it is all positive improvement. The breeder has made a big investment and moved to a very elite breeding program. But my dog does pretty much all I ask of her, and when she goes I'm not sure I'm up for paying the price the pups are now.
I could breed from her and keep a pup. But she's on restricted papers and there would be nothing in it for her breeder to allow me to mate her as being registered. It would just be a back dilution of the breeds genetic gains over the last 8 years. So I would end up with an un-papered pup by a sire of similar genetic merit as her.
So, we pay up, or go back yard. The back yard option is not good for the breed, but may be a natural consequence of the escalating price of pups. I should add that I have nothing but admiration of the efforts my dog's breeder has put into improving the breed.
Sometimes I think people get to wrapped up in the paper. I've got a pure whippet here that is a stunner, just over 12 months old and shaping into better than her mother. Now I know another rabbiter that ran her mother Karla, till she died and he said best whippet he's seen. Not a paper in sight. That bitch that died had naturally good pups, even the crosses that were bred from her excelled.
Or there is Jess's daughter Heidi, Jess is a stunning rabbit and so is Heidi as she has already proven at a young age, so I put Jack over Heidi. Brilliant dog + brilliant dog leads to one thing. Still not a paper in sight.
I think more of it comes down to training, but more importantly PATIENCE. That one word is the key.
That Karla I spoke of, most people would have shoot her six months after getting her (at most) as it turned out she was gun shy. I didn't and the rewards were beautiful.
So to get carried away with the paper work or not, good question. Or buy two cheap pups then six/twelve months later shoot the useless one...