Does anybody know if this breed is in NZ yet?
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Does anybody know if this breed is in NZ yet?
nope.
Not sure what @kawhia thinks? but the Cesky's are interesting. I hear that they are importing new blood which is probably needed and will be good for the breed.
Im starting to think about what next 'cos my girl is heading for 11 (and Im heading for 72 :) ) Maybe just ashes for both of us.
new blood for the cesky won't really provide anything as world wide they are bottle necked and are using other breeds to try and fix the inbreeding problems, interesting the WPG, wirehaired pointing griffon, not the korthals is what they are using.
Yes.Had a friend 20 years ago from there who started breeding them. I didnt think they had anything over the gwp though. I my musings around that time I came across the breed history of Korthals griffon. They are like a 2/3rd scale gwp with same characteristics. Be the perfect breed for NZ I reckon but there were none here then. Maybe someone has brought some in?
@kawhia. Are there wpg in Nz? If so, are thre any good?
@kawhia this is interesting. If they were actually cross breeding into the 1950's as staled in the article wouldn't this have served as a quite broad genetic base? - although I guess 70 years of line breeding since would have channelled the breed into some tight genetics now.
How do the DD breeders work with this? Or does the larger population mean a larger gene pool (like with our sheep breeds)?
https://www.gundogmag.com/editorial/...-fousek/175470
Found this too which answers some of these questions, and says that the Cesky was used to improve the Griffon recently, not visa versa: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0221418
I am well out of date with recent breeding trends but I do recall (way back) that the old pure griffon breed had almost died out and attempt were being made to restore it but was difficult. I have nothing to complain about with the 4 gwp's I have owned in NZ; (have only one 3yr old at present) but kind of miss having two around at present. The "active" years I may have remaining mean if I am to get another young dog, it will have to be soon. Current dog Thor will likely be my last hunting dog otherwise.
the breed mirrors its sister breed Deutsch Stichelhaar, the cross breeding was an american idea and i think it split the breed club apart, at the time they were calling for blood from all over the world for some clarity, we were asked for blood and swabs by a cesky breeder in that process, i would guess they were looking for GR motherlines from the old type gwp we had here, [those big shaggy hair balls] in europe the breed survived but are not in huge numbers, It is very rare to even see a Drahthaar pedigree with the griffon motherline... the stichelhaar [cesky fousek] line is very strong.
larger population avoids the issue, the cesky will never grow to anything other than a minor breed, it grew here for the lack of decent working lines in many of the breeds at the time, then got caught out with bottle necking and lack of new blood.
any introduction of any new breed would be wise to look at the ups and downs of the cesky fousek, like the korthals you would need the healthly overseas gene pool [and deep pockets] to back it up... and i'm not sure the korthals is in better shape than the cesky fousek.
Yr probably right. I just never had deep enough pockets to bring in some Korthals so instead sought gwp as close to german test proven as I could afford. Stayed away from the british bred line though.
I hsve no complaints with my gwp's but will be 80+ by the time Thor reaches ten. Just thought a smaller version as I slow down might be an option.
All breeds of dogs, cattle, sheep, wild deer, etc that have been brought here take some time to be sorted out and make any progress. This is because only some of the individuals express genes suitable for NZ. What this then means is that bringing some new dog breed to NZ can be expected to initially fail and be a disappointment for a few generations while the best suited individuals are tested and used to establish a useful breeding line.
Brains are pretty important in dogs and so is a friendly biddable nature. If it is a nice friendly good natured dog there are always plenty of people who will look after it or take it when we finally get past needing it IMO. I am a bit wary of a lot of new imported breeds - some are great but plenty are dumb
I also find it interesting that good pedigree dogs (just to clarify I mean working hunting dogs) are generally more wallet friendly that the designer low allergy,low shedding muts which seem to prevail now, and you have some idea of what the dog will look like/behave like.
Mind you I am a bit of a snob I guess in that when people ask me what breed my dogs are I like a simple answer........................pointer, not this crossed with that!
My workmate has a Cavoodle and a Spoodle both of which cost $1800-$1900 each provided they agree to have a litter from each for the breeder, WTF!!
ours are not wallet friendly at all, but in the scheme of the dogs life it is still the cheapest bit.
I found yesterday a pair of Korthals Griffons did come to NZ over a decade ago but they did not breed well.
Still looking around.
Same characteristics as GWP but a bit smaller and stocky. None found so far.
Haven't you answered your own question @Woody "but they did not breed well, (because they were not genetically adapted to NZ conditions)" What is the point in trying to prove it can be done when better adapted dogs are here already? I personally know from breeding exotics.
Attached a photo of a Wap Bull I am growing out this year, 25% Fiordland genes. 100 years of wild adaptation makes a big difference to hardiness and environmental fitness compared with purebred Canadian importsAttachment 127302 The original strains of Lab were far superior to the later English imports, but over time the English have been culled and the rubbish bred out so that most Labs are now good again. Ridgebacks would be an example of a new breed that was initially very popular when every pig hunter had to get one, then fell from favour for brainlessness to where you hardly see them now, but the ones that we do see are the result of 20+ years of selective breeding and are quite good. I like hunting dogs crossed with well adapted working strains like heading dogs. Working dogs ( Border collie, heading dog types) have been here 100 years plus and crossing them with hunting breeds is very successful. The best pig and deer dogs are nearly always heading dogs or their crosses. Heading / corralling stock is just a modified hunting behaviour anyway where the dog wants us to kill the sheep.
@Moa Hunter. Very nice pic.
On Korthals, I was merely making an enquiry as to their status in NZ at present time; not trying to advocate.
Nothing wrong with some of the good wirehairs around but I an kind of fond of the concept of a similar breed still with more of the old griffon type. Just a dream really.
I have some possibilities on the enquiry excercise at present.
Am reading this thread with interest. Everyone has their own preferences when it comes to dogs (among other things) and there does seem to be a definite preference for a pedigree over a cross with many people. I am with Moa though for myself and really like the working dog crosses. Sure, strong eyes can be a bit nutty but the right calm, plainer eyed one and the right cross they seem to go really well. Most of the purebreds and especially with the versatiles seem too highly strung for my liking or they take most of their life to calm down. Or they feel the cold too much etc etc. The other thing I seem to see is people hearing of the odd one that was amazing and then spend their lives trying to find one of that breed like that. For me if I was looking for a purebred whatever for hunting, I would spend a long, long time researching the absolute best line and then interview people who have that line and watch the dogs in action. Then I would spend any amount of money to get one. I am really interested in what people think for a pedigree indicating dog that is calm, biddable, easy to read and good in the cold. I keep punching those requirements in (which I think most people are after) and I keep coming up with a good smaller lab or a heading dog. There is no doubt that proper training and plenty of work also make a huge difference. And sometimes you just like a certain breed for no other reason than you like it. And that is more than half the fun too I think. And Tahr, you should definitely get another dog after Tilly, as hard as that is to think about. You have at least another 15 years hunting in you mate ;)
+1 on that Hiawatha. If anyone is interested in mating a Bitch I know where there is a Lab dog (as in male) that leaves outstanding pups. This dog ( Clay) is 10 yrs old, can still jump onto the back of a Hilux with ease, run down a rabbit etc but more importantly leaves improvement in any pups. The dog is on the outskirts of rural ChCh. Clay has been mated a couple of time to a Border Collie and the pups are determined and smart hunters.
your musterlander will not come from working stock, there are no breeders breeding from tested german or even english bred field lines.
i have been asked to source german bred dogs for a couple of guys wanting to invest in the breed, i get the same questions from the germans about dog shows and non hunting homes for there lines, there was a time a reintroduction of the breed could have worked but not while they keep getting topped up by australian show lines and frozen semen from uk show kennels.
Yeah, but it depends on your expectations and what you want. The pup I got from you Kawhia pre your DD bloodlines was not tested German blood lines but certainly has met my expectations and has been probably "good enough" by any ordinary person's expectations (and I knew what I was getting and was very happy about the whole thing). A bonus was that both parents hunted well. Sure, lots of hunting has brought out what ever potential existed in her blood lines but I have been thoroughly happy (and so has she :) ). I see no reason why the NZ Large Munsterlanders from Aus semen should not be the same - good enough for the ordinary hunter person. Same with the Feskes'.
My girl is a bit like what you describe too Tahr. Except she is a cross breed from proven parents (mother is cross bred too) who threw consistent pups. Like you I am really happy. I think if you have a dog with brains, temperament and enough hunt drive for what you want then add training and plenty hunting and everyone should be happy.
Is it possible to bring in semen from a proven dog ? If it is, pups from a totally different unrelated line especially if it is a 'line bred' line will give a heterosis effect in the same way as crossing to a different breed. Meaning consistently good pups in the litter
To quote an old dog trialist I met on the ferry once. " It is hard enough to get good pups out of top dogs young fella". Fair call. ;)
The cesky is in the same boat as my own dogs, not influenced by non working breeding, just has a very shallow gene pool, the large munsterlander has a very defined split, the guys wanting them have tried the latest generations here hence them looking at the german side, I am sure the environmental situation with tilly has been the making of her, I had her sister for a long time and she was rehomed to a mate down south who is currently waiting on her replacement, her brother bru's owner has already got another pup from me, and I have just sent a pup north to replace the fourth pup in that litter.
Yes they ticked a few boxes for the ordinary hunters, hopefully the new stuff ticks a few more
I agree. And also about older chaps like Thar getting another dog. The best dogs are the ones in experienced hands and have a (good) older dog to give them confidence etc. just my 2cents.
Yeah well we are looking for another GWP it will be my third
My first was a aggressive mutt so I shot her, it bit my kids and would try and bite anyone else for that matter. The breeder gave me a replacement and the love was started.
@Gapped axe
Are you looking for a pup or an older dog GA?
I would like a pup Woody
Ive made contack with Anna Goldies husband, they have nothing but have taken my details, so we will see I guess
Attachment 141755bugger pup on order Korthals Griffon careful what you ask for
Would love one of those