Raw feeding - getting started.

First post in the dog section.

I have a Black Labrador arriving in a few in two weeks. I would like to raw feed as balanced diet as possible and I’ve been shooting a fair few Tahr, Deer and Chamios for dog tucker. I save all livers, kidneys, lungs, hearts etc to supplement store bought meat. It’s the bone content that I would like some advice on, specifically how to prepare to prepare small game before freezing.

Question: with Rabbits and Hares I have been removing the leg bones, guts and skin before freezing but wonder if this is really necessary to remove the leg bones. Will a pup be able to pass these safely or are they best avoided until he is older?

I am probably overthinking this but better safe than sorry right?

Cheers,
Hayden

Hi Hayden, welcome to the dog section:) ...any organ meat should be cooked before feeding to dogs...even the offal from off the Hill can have parasites...re the rabbit and hare meat, I would cut the meat off for the first few months, but a venison leg bone cut in half will keep him busy...once he has gone through teething...when those needle sharp first teeth come away, then introduce more...be careful of brisket bones (the gristle can, for want of a better word, clog up the digestive track, often to traumatic proportions)...I consider the vertebrae of hares and rabbits more problematic to the young dog than most of the bones...

Hope we can see some fotos...:D

PS...great to know that you are a raw meat for dogs stalwart...:)

Cut the tails and paws/claws off 'possums and discard them (the tails can created a blockage). I just don't like the thought of them eating claws.
Maybe just old fashioned shit I was taught when shepherding, but better to be sure than sorry.

Freeze sheep meat to kill sheep measles.

Honestly I would just stick to uncooked brisket bones for puppies. They are cheap and challenging for the dogs to chew around the joints, helps with keeping the teeth clean and for a puppy should help while they are teething.

For a puppy I would stick to quality dry kibble to make sure the pup is getting a good balance of all necessary nutrients that you may otherwise get wrong if you go with raw food. I would soak the kibble with milk and separately add additional red meat for protein.

Once they are older I would experiment then.

If it's a pup flag the raw diet and follow that last post.
Raw is great if done right but the same result can be achieved using a decent dry food mixed with a balanced amount of meat.
A pup with the shits every other day and long term issues with certain types of meat can be the result of feeding raw wrong.

I often put rabbits through a trade me hand mincer bones and meat only. Goodness of the bones but so fine you wouldn't know it was in there. I might make it go further by adding rice rolled oats, anything in the cupboard that might be good. Possum bones are just a bit too big for my mincer.

I agree with Petros and Kawhia. Having had gundogs for 40 years and a commercial trainer for over 15 I feed good quality kibble and Brisket bones or Beef Canon bones every fortnight.

My vet considers my dogs among the healthiest she sees through her practice. I have never had a skin issue, digestive issue, or dental hygiene issue.

Many of the "Diet" concepts are over thought and over sold by people who are compensating for a lack on knowledge elsewhere in the canine field, usually training.

Dogs have extremely robust digestive systems, it does not need to be over thought. Good luck with your pup and I hope to see you post his progress as he grows up.

Appreciate the replies but must admit I’m more confused than before I posted.

Responses range from;

• Avoid certain bones, others recommend them
• Remove some parts of the animal
• Run small game it through a mincer
• Flag the whole raw feeding approach all together

Also, lots of conflicting advice on the net on biscuits. Some recommend them to supplement a raw diet where others say one or the other, but defiantly not both.

What are people’s views on feeding two meals a day, one raw and one biscuits?

Also, EeeBees you recommend cooking organs to avoid parasites. Will freezing for 3-4 weeks achieve the same thing?

Cooking organs in the recently renovated kitchen with the wife’s new pans is guaranteed to see me joining the dog outside!

You are over thinking it.
Follow your pups breeders instructions.
For what it is worth we feed 50/50 after a year or so old, 25/75 in favor of the dry before then.
Twice a day for pups, once for adults.
Mutton,venison, fish and chicken frames provide enough nutrition when balanced out with dry.
Beef brisket is good but can clog them up if feed too often....it does clean out the anal glands mind.

Cannon bones broke most of my dogs teeth. But my dog isn't a soft chewers. He's not a hunting dog.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hayden C

Appreciate the replies but must admit I’m more confused than before I posted.

Responses range from;

• Avoid certain bones, others recommend them
• Remove some parts of the animal
• Run small game it through a mincer
• Flag the whole raw feeding approach all together

Also, lots of conflicting advice on the net on biscuits. Some recommend them to supplement a raw diet where others say one or the other, but defiantly not both.

What are people’s views on feeding two meals a day, one raw and one biscuits?

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That's the nature of forums, you need to filter through the information and see what works for you. There are some experienced breeders/handlers above (I don't mean me) that have shared their views and I would go with their suggestion.

If you are after a prescription, I have confidence that most vets will advise to go with quality dry food, at least all the vets I've been to have suggested that.
Call a few on the phone, they are all happy bunch to provide the info, see what they say. :) :) :)

My 2c. All our working dog pups have been raised on "boilup" Fatty brisket, liver, heart, salt and water boiled till cooked, remove brisket etc and put through a burley mincer. Add rice to the hot liquid and let it absorb, add back in the minced brisket and stir through to make a nice greasy mess. Spoon out into a trough and watch them go!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kawhia

You are over thinking it.
Follow your pups breeders instructions.
For what it is worth we feed 50/50 after a year or so old, 25/75 in favor of the dry before then.
Twice a day for pups, once for adults.
Mutton,venison, fish and chicken frames provide enough nutrition when balanced out with dry.
Beef brisket is good but can clog them up if feed too often....it does clean out the anal glands mind.

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Agree I’m over thinking this. I just want to get the pup off to the right start with the best possible diet to supplement the usual socks, shoes, cloths, expensive hunting gear, electrical cords & furniture diet of a typical Labrador:thumbsup:

@Hayden C, I truly appreciate you wanting to get your puppy off to the right start...:) Kawhia is right...go by the breeder's diet and ease the puppy into the diet you wish for him...I feed my puppies twice a day...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hayden C

Agree I’m over thinking this. I just want to get the pup off to the right start with the best possible diet to supplement the usual socks, shoes, cloths, expensive hunting gear, electrical cords & furniture diet of a typical Labrador:thumbsup:

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Totally over thinking it. Unless you feed the pup sawdust he'll grow just fine. He will never get to experience "socks, shoes, cloths, expensive hunting gear, electrical cords & furniture" unless you leave him to explore these options which will be poor handling. When he is an old dog, having served you well on the hill it will not be his diet you will look back on to determine what made him a great dog, but your input into his training, obedience and experience. I recommend kibble because I have never had an issue with a dog raised on it, never even know of an incident with a dog raised on it. People talk about skin allergies etc but that's usually a breeder trying to dodge their their genetic issues and blame it on kibble. I like the boil up regime @Marty Henry recommends but I don;t have hours in the day for that. Vets will always recommend kibble, most often the one they stock because they want to sell it to you, not because it is the best one. Feeding should be taken into consideration, but in the wider scope of things is a very small consideration to one of the animals on this planets with the hardiest digestive system there is.

Oh and yeah, puppies twice a day up to anywhere between 6 - 12 months. Then once per day and I often fast mine through 24 hours a week. An old drover told me this once and I have found letting them have a total clean out is good. You only get blockage issues with brisket if you give them too much.,

Feed it them biscuit things till it's teeth are in then sling whatever is around the place out the door. It will eat it and do well.
Boning rabbits? Um, NO.

Attachment 58962Attachment 58963

Dogs need dental treatment???? This is my 4 1/2 year old bitch, lives off kibble, brisket bones (sparingly) every couple of weeks keep her teeth like this.

Our breeder was a big one for correct balance in pup food. No brand push, just guidlines. I agree with her. Thats when they form bones etc.
Also dont let your pup launch of high stuff etc when young. Or jump into/out of the truck. I have seen a dog buggered from this - and it a was raw meat only from 12 weeks dog. Not clever.

The dog may still get allergies ( our does) but you wouldnt feed a baby an imbalanced diet would you ??

I tried working out once what was needed in a home made diet to cover the required nutrients and gave up. Her indoors was a vet nurse who fed her rottie home made food but only when he was an adult. Bloody cooked meatloaf amongst other things! Still, I get pretty good food now! Woof!!

Buy good food if you want a good healthy dog. Your car may run on old kero and thinners but not very well. And not for long.
You can run on shit food/ red bull/no sleep all day but not well. And not for long as a rule.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bang-thud-thump

Our breeder was a big one for correct balance in pup food. No brand push, just guidlines. I agree with her. Thats when they form bones etc.
Also dont let your pup launch of high stuff etc when young. Or jump into/out of the truck. I have seen a dog buggered from this - and it a was raw meat only from 12 weeks dog. Not clever.

The dog may still get allergies ( our does) but you wouldnt feed a baby an imbalanced diet would you ??

I tried working out once what was needed in a home made diet to cover the required nutrients and gave up. Her indoors was a vet nurse who fed her rottie home made food but only when he was an adult. Bloody cooked meatloaf amongst other things! Still, I get pretty good food now! Woof!!

Buy good food if you want a good healthy dog. Your car may run on old kero and thinners but not very well. And not for long.
You can run on shit food/ red bull/no sleep all day but not well. And not for long as a rule.....

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You are correct, but I'd like to hear how a raw diet is a better diet than the prepared stuff. In most cases the put together raw diet cannot compete with the scientifically prepared ready to feed dog foods. Yes there is a lot of shite out there, Tux etc... but the best kibbles are first rate. Economically I have found nothing that can compete with Purina Dog Chow. Many years of feeding to hundreds of dogs, without incident and compliments on health, but hey, maybe you're right. The competition for the billion dollar international markets is such that most big pet food companies now have scientists on staff continually working on ensuring their foods are balanced and trustworthy. Most of the bullshit you read about allergies etc are simply that, and I'm sure your breeder made an excellent case, with absolutely NOTHING to back it up.

One last point. Everyone should remain well aware the totality of the requirements to be "a breeder" is to get an entire male canine to mate with an 'in-season' canine female. It doesn't take much. In that group there is a wide range of those with knowledge and those who are totally clueless.

Research, research and more research...if you are clueless you should not be breeding dogs...it is a big responibility and with all the wahwahs out there becoming even more so...accredited breeders...are we not all...even I can say that I am accredited with breeding dogs...

Scientifically proven...how is that...you can always tell if a dog eats only the science and not the animal...it will have dye stains around its mouth...and all that goes towards keeping some people very happy...no one should dispute that the INTRINSIC value of animal flesh is what a dog SHOULD BE EATING...

Kevin has arrived. He is settling in well.

Attachment 59505

Kevin is a lovely puppy...:) go well, little one...

Hey Hayden, I hope you don’t mind me pulling up this old thread, how’d you get on with your feeding diet in the first year?

In the end I switched him to 75/25 dry kibble/raw diet. A lot of the research I did suggested raw feeding was the way to go however it was very difficult to ensure that the pup would get all the nutrients he needed.

What's wrong with tux?
It's all my dog gets as far as buscuits , every so often rabbit too. He's 11 now.

The science behind dog foods, like most things made by big corporations, is for the perpetuation of $$$$$$$$ ... the canine has extremely strong jaws and a dental configuration for the consumption of animal flesh/animal skin/paunch and innards, his digestive system is powerful ... so what we do is feed? ... a 'scientifically proven' regime ... so wrong ... but to be fair, to feed dogs on consumer $$$ is so easy, the ingredients are sorted, afterall the science has been done for us ... wrong ... feeding dogs a raw diet takes time and bother, that is why it is so easy to go to the farm co-op, buy a bag of whatevers ... job sorted ...

Feeding dogs is a pretty polarizing issue and you will struggle to get the right information. Part of the reason you will struggle is that very little research has been undertaken. Most information is based upon anecdotal accounts and is swayed by peoples different incentives. There is no incentive for say Mars or Colgate to do research on whether raw food is better than dry. They already make billions selling Hills and Royal Canine, why jeopardize those profits. Nor do I think that it is a coincidence that they are heavily involved in the nutrition courses at vet school or that they sponsor and support a lot of the vet clinics.

Bones - I don't feed my dogs beef bones from mature animals as they are as hard as a rock and could damage their teeth. I prefer something like a veal bone which is softer. But I tend to wait until they are about a year old.
Remove some parts - see Sheepmeasles | Reducing the risk of sheep measles
On avoiding raw food - i just can't see how feeding highly processed food waste to my dogs is in their best interest. feeding a balanced diet is obviously a concern and so unless you are prepared to do a lot of reading and thinking about it an easy option is always mighty mix frozen concentrate.

I’ve decided to keep Gember on a raw diet for now at least. She struggled a bit with the separation and so went off her food, did a bit of howling and whining.

Chris suggested forcing the older dog to sleep with her and immediately she changed to a very happy and contented puppy. Howling and whining stopped immediately and none since.

Attachment 81644

When we collected her a week ago, she was on a tripe/beef mince mix, we added in lamb mince to vary it, but she was off her food. Cut her back to a couple of meals of tripe only, and she got eating again. Grabbed a lamb chop without a bone in and she went crazy with it, so we're back to the three meats but she gets the lamb as a cut now to chew up instead of minced.

I need to do more research on the feed, and get some other options to vary it as well.

Second that. Follow breeder recommendations which will be as above for a puppy mix nibble dry food supplemented with other mixes. Cooked meat, eggs, rice mixes etc.
I think we started our 2 off with something like that. We did not really move to raw food until they would have moved off puppy mix.
Now its 75% raw mix and the rest kibble.
My setter Is a garbage guts and seems to cope with most any thing including fur covered skin. (i try and limit how much skin and fur he eats as i would not want him to get a blockage.)
He gets mostly goat.
My wife's westhighland terrier is sensitive and he mostly gets supper market raw pet food chicken or lamb. I give some goat if it's young.
Old stinky goat give him and my Dads curly coated retrievery the runs.
Zane

Pics of setter please @ZQLewis !