Thread: What would you pay for a pup?

Originally Posted by mopheadrob

Hi all.

We’re considering breeding Sacha, our 2 year old lab / vizsla cross. We haven’t done this before but are under no illusions about the time, cost & risk involved, so we’re trying to decide if it’s worth it.

She’s a gorgeous dog with a strong hunting drive and has been a dream to train. As she’s not purebred we will probably look to put a vizsla or vizslador sire over her so the vizsla traits don’t get watered down too much.

As Sacha is a first cross (F1) from two different breeds she will exhibit hybrid vigor ( heterosis ). If she is crossed back to one of the parent breeds or a cross made from the parent breeds in whole or part, the offspring will loose the hybrid vigor. Crossing to a third and unrelated breed will maintain and increase the HV.
As pure dog breeds have a high inbreeding co-efficient, outcrossing to other breeds is a good idea and will in most cases produce a hardier, longer lived, more vigorous and all round better utility type dog than the pure parent breeds

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

As Sacha is a first cross (F1) from two different breeds she will exhibit hybrid vigor ( heterosis ). If she is crossed back to one of the parent breeds or a cross made from the parent breeds in whole or part, the offspring will loose the hybrid vigor. Crossing to a third and unrelated breed will maintain and increase the HV.
As pure dog breeds have a high inbreeding co-efficient, outcrossing to other breeds is a good idea and will in most cases produce a hardier, longer lived, more vigorous and all round better utility type dog than the pure parent breeds

Good theory but its not true in every case, as you say..

If you want a healthy long lived dog the best idea is health checks on the parents.. Backyard breeders rarely [if ever] do this, responsible breeders do.

Originally Posted by sore head stoat

Good theory but its not true in every case, as you say..

If you want a healthy long lived dog the best idea is health checks on the parents.. Backyard breeders rarely [if ever] do this, responsible breeders do.

we got burnt with our cocker...my fault entirely,rushed into it,bought from folks who looked OK,parents looked OK...but dog was more or less blind within 6 years had more loose skin on head than average undocked cock..... he was brilliant dog but VERY hard on a gundog when they can no longer see a bird go down 20 yards infront of them....
Ive always had crossbred mongrels and no real health issues...touch wood.
$200-600

Originally Posted by sore head stoat

Good theory but its not true in every case, as you say..

If you want a healthy long lived dog the best idea is health checks on the parents.. Backyard breeders rarely [if ever] do this, responsible breeders do.

It is an in-arguable fact that heterosis masks genetic faults in a first cross. The cross of two very good fault free purebred lines will give very good results. But where are the fault free lines ? Greyhounds and Border Collies ?
None of this is 'Good theory' it is proven fact. Remember Gregor Mendel and his crosses of sweet peas from high school lessons. It has been know for a long time

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

It is an in-arguable fact that heterosis masks genetic faults in a first cross. The cross of two very good fault free purebred lines will give very good results. But where are the fault free lines ? Greyhounds and Border Collies ?
None of this is 'Good theory' it is proven fact. Remember Gregor Mendel and his crosses of sweet peas from high school lessons. It has been know for a long time

It does not mask genetic faults completely , it gives the 50/50 offspring a reduced chance of genetic faults.. second paragraph ?

https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/article...osiseffect.htm


However again I would say that getting health checks done by a vet and only breeding from dogs that are known to be free from any problems greatly reduces your chance of what happened to me with my first dog .

Originally Posted by sore head stoat

It does not mask genetic faults completely , it gives the 50/50 offspring a reduced chance of genetic faults.. second paragraph ?

https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/article...osiseffect.htm


However again I would say that getting health checks done by a vet and only breeding from dogs that are known to be free from any problems greatly reduces your chance of what happened to me with my first dog .

The real work on breed crossing is done with plants and livestock esp pigs and chickens. The author of the article would perhaps benefit from reading some of this research.
Again I ask, which dog breeds are free of genetic faults ? Not many, so crossing to produce a more healthy longer lived utility animal is often a better path than breeding pure lines unless those lines are very very good and of a foundation stock standard. In livestock and plant breeding, very productive pure lines are maintained and used to cross and produce the plants and animals we consume as food.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

The real work on breed crossing is done with plants and livestock esp pigs and chickens. The author of the article would perhaps benefit from reading some of this research.
Again I ask, which dog breeds are free of genetic faults ? Not many, so crossing to produce a more healthy longer lived utility animal is often a better path than breeding pure lines unless those lines are very very good and of a foundation stock standard. In livestock and plant breeding, very productive pure lines are maintained and used to cross and produce the plants and animals we consume as food.

I think the author of the article I put up agrees with you and so do I that you are correct but "completely correct" ?

Which breeds of dogs are free of genetic faults ? None that I know of. The point I was trying to make was that with doing health checks on the dam and sire you can quite confidently [but not with 100% certainty] rule out many of the genetic faults from a potential pup purchase ?

Originally Posted by sore head stoat

I think the author of the article I put up agrees with you and so do I that you are correct but "completely correct" ?

Which breeds of dogs are free of genetic faults ? None that I know of. The point I was trying to make was that with doing health checks on the dam and sire you can quite confidently [but not with 100% certainty] rule out many of the genetic faults from a potential pup purchase ?

In relation to Robs bitch, as she is a crossbred anyway there is no 'papered pedigree' value in her. So breeding of her would in my opinion be best aimed to produce the best utility type of dog - healthy, vigorous, long lived etc. Back crossing to a Vizla will not do this but outcrossing to a third unrelated breed will. What the best cross would be is open to debate

That's why I thought my Huntaway should have been pretty healthy but he ended up with diabetes which was a right pain in the whatsit

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

As Sacha is a first cross (F1) from two different breeds she will exhibit hybrid vigor ( heterosis ). If she is crossed back to one of the parent breeds or a cross made from the parent breeds in whole or part, the offspring will loose the hybrid vigor. Crossing to a third and unrelated breed will maintain and increase the HV.
As pure dog breeds have a high inbreeding co-efficient, outcrossing to other breeds is a good idea and will in most cases produce a hardier, longer lived, more vigorous and all round better utility type dog than the pure parent breeds

having been kicking around with a couple of pighunters lately,the discussion has come up.
one runs dogs only..so he is screwed and has to buy in any new pups or find someone who likes look/ability of his dog and wants litter from thier bitch. now the fella who runs mostly bitches has much easier time...he finds a dog he likes look of and abilities of with something extra he doesnt already have with his bitch and takes her along when in season and lets nature do the rest.... when litter arrives,picks 2 pups for himself and on sells the rest...proven pig dog bitches litters arent all that hard to move on to new homes but prices wont do much more than cover cost....
he then keeps his 2 pups and spends the time with them and hopefully one turns out a cracker and the other half decent...he has continued his "line" of dogs and the older bitch gets a few years hunting with her pups before retirement and the pups take over.
we intend to one day breed from Poppy..when Meg goes to the big duck pond in the sky....and will consider options of sire very very carefully so we get something better than we have..be it smaller,less hairy,quieter,less barky,more bitey,more ducky (good luck finding anything more feather driven) or more deer inclined .....wont be for some time yet.
cant rush these things as you will have pup for 10-12 years if you make a dud,your stuck with it.