Thread: .243 load development part deux

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

either that or more confused than ever...lol

I was confused at the outset, becoming more confused was always a given!

Originally Posted by gimp

However, given the initial results with those massive groups - first step for me now would be immediately dropping the bullet and trying another, or looking at is there something wrong with the rifle/scope mounts. Do you have a bank of previous data from the factory ammo with this bullet?

I would say that the limited data I have on the Deer Season would suggest that yesterdays grouping was larger than has been typical but not by a huge margin, it's also very possible that scope/rings need checking as my zero is certainly off from the last time I checked for zero, I would normally expect to be touching centre of target at this distance, dragging through bush has evidently upset things

Ideally I believe,you should be 2"/50mm high....then point n shoot out to around 250 with zero fluffing around. KISS so if they 1/2" squares four clicks down,four clicks right....well actually I go six then take two off...

Originally Posted by Zedrex

I would say that the limited data I have on the Deer Season would suggest that yesterdays grouping was larger than has been typical but not by a huge margin, it's also very possible that scope/rings need checking as my zero is certainly off from the last time I checked for zero, I would normally expect to be touching centre of target at this distance, dragging through bush has evidently upset things

Remember that "typical" precision and position for 3rd groups is extremely variable in nature

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....3/#post1656779

Roger that, I'll be shooting 10rd groups from hereon in which from your posts would seem to be the most I need to shoot to prove a load within the parameters that reflect what I'm trying to achieve. There is a rabbit hole that I'm choosing not to walk too far down, after all my goal is to produce a load that shoots reasonably consistently sub MOA groups which should translate (in theory) into a radius of 3.45" at 300 metres.

Very few factory rifles will actually genuinely achieve a subMOA cone of fire - 1.5MOA for 10rd is good for a factory rifle. The good news is that's epic high hit probability at hunting ranges!

Originally Posted by gimp

Very few factory rifles will actually genuinely achieve a subMOA cone of fire - 1.5MOA for 10rd is good for a factory rifle. The good news is that's epic high hit probability at hunting ranges!

Good to know, I shall report back in due course with "findings"

The biggest difference to accuracy with reloads I have always found was the bullet itself. If it didnt shoot reasonably well, then messing around with loads, or changing OAL rarely made it suddenly shine. Better to try a different bullet.

I have seen not much difference to report on messing with seating depth, either jammed into the rifling or making large jumps with big freebore - either way has worked, so nowadays I tend to do as Gimp has suggested and seat them just off, and not be fussy about it - except for with the Barnes copper bullets. They can shoot terribly till you get the right OAL, which I have experienced myself. (I have not seen seating bullets deeply inside the case to raise pressures either, if anything it lowers then a lot. But it will raise raise pressures if you stick bullets into the rifling.)

I have observed the biggest difficulty to overcome with reloading and testing loads is the ability of the average shooter to shoot off a bench. Most people dont do it enough, or do not know how to do it consistently.

Chasing a good load is interesting and worthwhile, but at the same time I have come to understand that accuracy is overrated in a general-purpose hunting rifle. I have never lost a deer that I could attribute to a poor shooting rifle or load.

One of my favourite rifles is a little lever-action that will not shoot better than a 1.5 - 2 inch group at fifty metres. Maybe worse, because if I did Gimp's ten shot tests it would end up being something horrific, because after five rounds it starts heating up and spraying like a Sten gun. I just dont shoot at things further than a hundred yards away. So far so good. But I wouldnt cry if I came across something at 200 metres and missed it; it's a tool with limitations, and I like it for what it is.

If you’re within that 20 - 100 thou jump and you’ve got decent shooting ability then your rifle probably doesn’t like that bullet/powder combo.
You’re using a very well known, stable, easy to get powder so id be looking at a new bullet. Find a suitable candidate, load up 10 at a grain or two below max and shoot them. If you’re within 1 - 1.5 inches in a roundish shaped group. Happy days job done. It’s as simple as that.

Originally Posted by McNotty

If you’re within that 20 - 100 thou jump and you’ve got decent shooting ability then your rifle probably doesn’t like that bullet/powder combo.
You’re using a very well known, stable, easy to get powder so id be looking at a new bullet. Find a suitable candidate, load up 10 at a grain or two below max and shoot them. If you’re within 1 - 1.5 inches in a roundish shaped group. Happy days job done. It’s as simple as that.

I'm hearing you but why change the projectile when the 42gr load is shooting sub MOA? If all the loads were grouping poorly I'd agree that the projectile may be the issue...

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Originally Posted by John Duxbury

The biggest difference to accuracy with reloads I have always found was the bullet itself. If it didnt shoot reasonably well, then messing around with loads, or changing OAL rarely made it suddenly shine. Better to try a different bullet.

I have seen not much difference to report on messing with seating depth, either jammed into the rifling or making large jumps with big freebore - either way has worked, so nowadays I tend to do as Gimp has suggested and seat them just off, and not be fussy about it - except for with the Barnes copper bullets. They can shoot terribly till you get the right OAL, which I have experienced myself. (I have not seen seating bullets deeply inside the case to raise pressures either, if anything it lowers then a lot. But it will raise raise pressures if you stick bullets into the rifling.)

I have observed the biggest difficulty to overcome with reloading and testing loads is the ability of the average shooter to shoot off a bench. Most people dont do it enough, or do not know how to do it consistently.

Chasing a good load is interesting and worthwhile, but at the same time I have come to understand that accuracy is overrated in a general-purpose hunting rifle. I have never lost a deer that I could attribute to a poor shooting rifle or load.

One of my favourite rifles is a little lever-action that will not shoot better than a 1.5 - 2 inch group at fifty metres. Maybe worse, because if I did Gimp's ten shot tests it would end up being something horrific, because after five rounds it starts heating up and spraying like a Sten gun. I just dont shoot at things further than a hundred yards away. So far so good. But I wouldnt cry if I came across something at 200 metres and missed it; it's a tool with limitations, and I like it for what it is.

I think my consistency may be one of the hurdles to overcome during this load development. As I replied to McNotty the sub MOA grouping with the 42gr load suggests the issue isn't with the projectile but further testing is required to prove/disprove. Reloading is the rabbit hole of all rabbit holes and I'm clear there are just one or two variables I'm trying to "manage" not in order to eliminate them but more to produce a reasonably consistently cartridge that I can be confident in out to 300m

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Originally Posted by Zedrex

I'm hearing you but why change the projectile when the 42gr load is shooting sub MOA? If all the loads were grouping poorly I'd agree that the projectile may be the issue...

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All good mate. Go repeat the 42gr load and if it repeats, happy days. If it doesn’t refer back to all these posts.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

I'm hearing you but why change the projectile when the 42gr load is shooting sub MOA? If all the loads were grouping poorly I'd agree that the projectile may be the issue...

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This is the language/framing thing - it *has* shot submoa, once, for a 5 shot sample. What does that tell us about what it will do again in future? Who knows.

Ill have a go at explaing what's going on. Its called dispertion. Have a look at this picture.

On the left we have a "5 shot" group and on the right a "20 shot" or the equivalent of!



OK its sugar crystals, both "groups" dropped from the same hieght. Both groups happen to be about the same same size but the larger sample has many more "shots" at it centre. This is what you are seeing when you fire a 3 shot group versus a 10 shot or better. Its the way all rifles work. Your 42 gn load happens to have all 5 close, but if you fire ten itll start to look like either of the sugar piles.

I got called to the range yesterday to help out and struck a young fellow with a 270 with your exact issue. He was very disappointed with his Tikka groups. I went away vowing to figure out a way of explaining "dispersion" to him, and this is the best I can come up with so far. Like many guys his rifle (and yours) is completely nornal and fine to shoot deer to any normal range, are you gonna argue with the hundreds of grains of sugar that form up a pretty good group in the centre of the right hand pile?

For grins n giggles.get fresh blank bit of paper.stick every target over top of it and draw impact points onto the fresh bit of paper so you now have a twenty plus shot group shot onto same target....THAT will open eyes up. What's good n tight are central,what's not hover around the outside of central cluster.... Just like that sugar pile. It's percentage game. The higher the percentage in the cluster the better.