Thread: .243 load development part deux

Come on mate. There's 4 pages of people trying to lead you to water here.

This is going in circles if you're now going to ask us whether what you're seeing is perhaps down to having found a harmonic node or a velocity node.

There is plenty of evidence out there where shooters have experienced groups converging and diverging as they move up through load weights in as little as 0.2gr increments with a variance of sub MOA to 1.5MOA over 3 load increments.

Feel free to provide that data and shut us up, or drink.

I'm guilty of having done it like gimp has. Used to go chasing nodes. Even tried the Satterlee method on a couple of rifles (with a whopping sample size of ONE round per charge weight). Always ended up with a decent load. But looking back, I have nothing to say that I didn't simply get there because I was using 1) a good rifle with 2) a good barrel, 3) good components that were well suited to the job that my barrel liked, 4) good press and dies, 5) attention to detail when doing the reloading - and it was inevitable... Or maybe I didn't get there and just had just fluked a couple of nice groups without shooting enough to reveal the truth.

Anyway, I did some "load development" with my 284 at the weekend. 110gr Speer TNT's over AR2208. Goal was a cheap, high velocity, "make wallabies go away" load for detonating them out to 250-300m...

Knocked up 10 rounds. 1gr below max. Seating depth was "that looks about right" which was just over Speer's suggested length. Checked fit and feeding - all OK.

Target was a ~3 MOA gong at 400m. Guessed the drop based on estimated velocity. First shot went about 2 MOA high, because I neglected to consider POI shift from the usual load. Adjusted. Proceeded to just about middle the gong 9 times in a row.

I don't know what the exact group size was. But whatever it was, it more than exceeded the goal I had set. I'll load another batch and go smash some roos to confirm.

This is pretty slapdash by my usual standards - would normally have gone and shot them from the booth at the 100m range. But it is an example of how much you just don't need to overthink it. No charge weight ladders. No pissing with seating depth. Just a goal - and if it didn't meet it, I'd have tried the 120gr VMax, or maybe AR2206H.

Originally Posted by McNotty

How many shots did these shooters use per group to see these changes in dispersion? If you say 3-5, you’re not understanding what everyone is telling you. If you say 10 - 20, showings the data. Send us the links.

I don't know, I couldn't tell you. Just to be clear, seeing as some people seem to be getting their knickers in a bit of a wad. I'm not questioning what's being said with regards shooting larger groups and if that does not reproduce the sub MOA group then switching projectiles.....but I am adding a question around an issue which MAY have an impact....that is ALL.....
As I've said up there, I will be shooting bigger groups to see if the 42g grouping is repeatable

[QUOTE=whanahuia;1704575]And I say 3 or 5 shots because of this.

I think my consistency may be one of the hurdles to overcome during this load development. /QUOTE]

I suspect you can shoot better than you think. It takes a lot of shooting to be confident in your own abilities. But dont try and shoot big groups, as the mind can play tricks on you or frustration can build up. Shoot small groups often and overlay them. Like many things it takes time to build up the concentration fitness to do things well over a sustained timeframe.

I've made a habit lately of shooting a white dot on a black target and dialling so I can't see impacts until I go up to the target. Its helps remove the mind quite a lot.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Or does the "outlier" group indicate that the barrel harmonics and velocity are converging to the sweet spot? There is plenty of evidence out there where shooters have experienced groups converging and diverging as they move up through load weights in as little as 0.2gr increments with a variance of sub MOA to 1.5MOA over 3 load increments. This might be also shown by the grouping of my shots spreading as load weight increases?

I'm not saying that your theory is wrong but I am saying that no ones addressing barrel harmonics which absolutely will have an impact on grouping.

side note: I chose the SST not because of the plastic tip but for the flatbase and weight, I've already shown that my 1:10 twist in this particular rifle does not like boat tail projectiles AT ALL

How many boat tails have you tried? Your new to reload9ng but making big calls not backed in anything but the reloading equivalent of wives tails.

3 shots groups are not evidence. They are statistical noise. Hornady did a podcast that explains in layman's it's statistical variation most ar seeing.

Humans have an inate need to explain things and if they can't the next best is to make a wild guess.

Originally Posted by Pommy

Come on mate. There's 4 pages of people trying to lead you to water here.

This is going in circles if you're now going to ask us whether what you're seeing is perhaps down to having found a harmonic node or a velocity node.



Feel free to provide that data and shut us up, or drink.

As I said in my reply above, I'm not dismissing points raised out of hand and I've acknowledged and declared that shooting bigger groups to more accurately prove load is my next step followed by change of projectile if it doesn't reproduce.
You seem to think that I should just accept everything blindly rather than questioning (in order to understand in more depth) what's being offered, not sure why you have an issue with that, critical thinking is all about questioning the known and the unknown and you haven't answered to my question about harmonics, which DO have an impact on POI as it relates to POA....you're jumping up and down screaming "show me the data" where's your data showing that harmonics are not relevant?

Right now I've got that out of my system, cos nicotine withdrawal is taxing me......it's about 2 and a half pages...the rest is me
If you've read ALL the posts, which is probably boring af...you'll see I'm not refuting anything....but I am questioning and contrary, I regularly challenge the status quo....(and I've found that the status quo is often "because I said so")..that's how my brain works.....if people want blind adoration and unquestioning obedience..I suggest a puppy!

Originally Posted by Zedrex

I don't know, I couldn't tell you. Just to be clear, seeing as some people seem to be getting their knickers in a bit of a wad. I'm not questioning what's being said with regards shooting larger groups and if that does not reproduce the sub MOA group then switching projectiles.....but I am adding a question around an issue which MAY have an impact....that is ALL.....
As I've said up there, I will be shooting bigger groups to see if the 42g grouping is repeatable

I think worrying about the little things is pointless if the loads bad. Even if it was a "node" if half a grain can put it out then so could a summer to winter temp swing, or a tight neck or any variation in seating depth. Why would you want a load that's needs tuning to such a margin. Would a bullet that shoots good at all charge weights be way more desirable

Originally Posted by Stocky

How many boat tails have you tried? Your new to reload9ng but making big calls not backed in anything but the reloading equivalent of wives tails.

3 shots groups are not evidence. They are statistical noise. Hornady did a podcast that explains in layman's it's statistical variation most ar seeing.

Humans have an inate need to explain things and if they can't the next best is to make a wild guess.

And you're making a whole bunch of assumptions...who said I reloaded boattails? Who said I shot same boattails in groups of 3? Which wives tails are you talking about? I haven't come across any? Unless of course you're talking about the widely held belief that FB's are "easier to be accurate with out to medium hunting distances" when compared to BT projectiles
My experience of BT factory ammo with this particular barrel on this particular gun is shooting 2 boxes of one particular brand (bipod/bag n bench) and weight and watching POI having bugger all to do with POA and just to address the issue I can almost hear you typing, at the same time period I was taking wallabiies with head shots out around the 100m mark (same rifle different factory ammo) from an offhand position, so I'm reasonably certain that it wasn't "me" being the issue

Yeah, I agree.

Im not sure how it got quite so confrontational. It shouldn't have.

Personally if you have the time and components, Id love to see you do some work on the load you have before trying what others, including myself suggest. We will all be able to gain something from it.

Ive been lucky in that almost all my rifles Ive either lucked onto great accuracy straight away. Or the rifles hasn't been fussy. As such 3 shots has been enough for me and Ive had the luxury of building data over a prolonged period of time with no concern it might lead me to miss in the short term.

Its actually a hard thing to do to sort through the scatter when you are getting the mixed results you have so far.

Originally Posted by Stocky

I think worrying about the little things is pointless if the loads bad. Even if it was a "node" if half a grain can put it out then so could a summer to winter temp swing, or a tight neck or any variation in seating depth. Why would you want a load that's needs tuning to such a margin. Would a bullet that shoots good at all charge weights be way more desirable

I don't "know" that the load is bad, as many have pointed out, I don't have enough data.....

The ONLY place I've heard the expectation that a given projectile should perform in a similar fashion regardless of the charge weight.....is this forum.........

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Yeah, I agree.

Im not sure how it got quite so confrontational. It shouldn't have.

Personally if you have the time and components, Id love to see you do some work on the load you have before trying what others, including myself suggest. We will all be able to gain something from it.

Ive been lucky in that almost all my rifles Ive either lucked onto great accuracy straight away. Or the rifles hasn't been fussy. As such 3 shots has been enough for me and Ive had the luxury of building data over a prolonged period of time with no concern it might lead me to miss in the short term.

Its actually a hard thing to do to sort through the scatter when you are getting the mixed results you have so far.

Probably because some struggle with "their truth" not being lapped up, it's a subconscious acknowledgement need (ask me how I know)

I will be doing more work on this load over the coming days, I'm excited to see it proved or disproved, I'm not attached to it being the right load and if further testing shows it's a bag of poo, I'll change things around, it's an interesting exercise which generates data that I can build on and learn from, right alongside having chats like this to see what others think or have to contribute

You're not challenging the status quo mate. Things like velocity nodes and barrel harmonics, ladder testing etc... all these things have been a part of the status quo for decades.

It's the more recent data driven analysis of load development that is challenging it.

Gimp's done an excellent thread with lots of data. You don't have to accept anything blindly.

I have no data to definitively show that harmonics are not a thing. Similarly there is no data to show that they are. Do I believe in the existence of something without something to back it up? No.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Yeah, I agree.

Im not sure how it got quite so confrontational. It shouldn't have.

Personally if you have the time and components, Id love to see you do some work on the load you have before trying what others, including myself suggest. We will all be able to gain something from it.

Ive been lucky in that almost all my rifles Ive either lucked onto great accuracy straight away. Or the rifles hasn't been fussy. As such 3 shots has been enough for me and Ive had the luxury of building data over a prolonged period of time with no concern it might lead me to miss in the short term.

Its actually a hard thing to do to sort through the scatter when you are getting the mixed results you have so far.

I'm very interested to see more shots from the 95gr. Particularly to see if that wee fella down at about 6 o'clock way out of the composite group ends up in the wider group with a few more shots or if it's a genuine outlier - if it is, that indicates either serious rifle, loading or shooter error of some kind! As you say it could be very informative

This poor chap just wants a good shooting rifle, and I'm keen to help him avoid the pitfalls of all the "common knowledge" out there, but it's a bit of a firehose of information

Originally Posted by Zedrex

You mean like this? So now I have a 20 shot group sample...which has reinforced that the 42gr load is performing the best.... what am I missing?

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Im guessing the black dots are the 42grn load? Overlaid with your first effort with 42grns that looks to be circa 1.5/2moa for 10 shots. If you could repeat that again I would pack up and go home or at least stop posting about it.
I think confidence is important. Your first 42 grn load would have given you confidence. Your second 42 grn load confirmed it. A third should have you brimming.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Im guessing the black dots are the 42grn load? Overlaid with your first effort with 42grns that looks to be circa 1.5/2moa for 10 shots. If you could repeat that again I would pack up and go home or at least stop posting about it.
I think confidence is important. Your first 42 grn load would have given you confidence. Your second 42 grn load confirmed it. A third should have you brimming.

Nup...and yes lol the black dots are the 42gr, the red dots are the 41.5gr the blue are 42.5 and the fluro are 43gr. My intention now is to shoot more groups of the 42...and see what I get....and as for stop posting about it....forums are like TV, peeps can always change the channel to
suit their viewing preferences

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