Thread: .243 load development part deux

Originally Posted by Pommy

You're not challenging the status quo mate. Things like velocity nodes and barrel harmonics, ladder testing etc... all these things have been a part of the status quo for decades.

It's the more recent data driven analysis of load development that is challenging it.

Gimp's done an excellent thread with lots of data. You don't have to accept anything blindly.

I have no data to definitively show that harmonics are not a thing. Similarly there is no data to show that they are. Do I believe in the existence of something without something to back it up? No.

Yet you can disbelieve in something without backing it up either.... you're almost as contrary as me!!

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Originally Posted by Zedrex

Nup...and yes lol the black dots are the 42gr, the red dots are the 41.5gr the blue are 42.5 and the fluro are 43gr. My intention now is to shoot more groups of the 42...and see what I get....and as for stop posting about it....forums are like TV, peeps can always change the channel to
suit their viewing preferences

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I was thinking purely about your well being

Originally Posted by Tahr

I was thinking purely about your well being

My well being is fine but I do appreciate your concern, I was raised on a diet of robust debate, it's great exercise for the noggin

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Originally Posted by gimp

I'm very interested to see more shots from the 95gr. Particularly to see if that wee fella down at about 6 o'clock way out of the composite group ends up in the wider group with a few more shots or if it's a genuine outlier - if it is, that indicates either serious rifle, loading or shooter error of some kind! As you say it could be very informative

This poor chap just wants a good shooting rifle, and I'm keen to help him avoid the pitfalls of all the "common knowledge" out there, but it's a bit of a firehose of information

Thank you @gimp , you get it not drowned yet but paddling hard

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Originally Posted by Zedrex

And you're making a whole bunch of assumptions...who said I reloaded boattails? Who said I shot same boattails in groups of 3? Which wives tails are you talking about? I haven't come across any? Unless of course you're talking about the widely held belief that FB's are "easier to be accurate with out to medium hunting distances" when compared to BT projectiles
My experience of BT factory ammo with this particular barrel on this particular gun is shooting 2 boxes of one particular brand (bipod/bag n bench) and weight and watching POI having bugger all to do with POA and just to address the issue I can almost hear you typing, at the same time period I was taking wallabiies with head shots out around the 100m mark (same rifle different factory ammo) from an offhand position, so I'm reasonably certain that it wasn't "me" being the issue

"I've already shown that my 1:10 twist in this particular rifle does not like boat tail projectiles AT ALL"

That would make me assume you have tried boat tail projectiles. Being that 95 NBT or even the TMK will usually stabalise in a 10 twist. As will a 90 ELD-X. I would have expected you to have tried these as you have talked about getting the most from the 243 in other threads. So yes i made assumptions.

I said equivalent to wives tails as it it gets repeated but there's not proof. Ie that nodes are in anyway able to be tuned. Almost all assumptions in reloading havent been proven. I'm not saying they couldn't be true but I would assume they aren't unless you can prove otherwise.

The groups of 3 was about people that show "evidence of tuning loads" not about you at all. I use 3 shot groups often but as a way to exclude loads. If a 3 shot group is bad that combination is done.

Could you explain the BT comment I dont want to assume what you mean?

I also made a comment saying your probably not a bad shooter and that it's usually the rifle in good shooting conditions with comfortable setups that mostly contributes. If you saw bad results it was likely a bad combination for your gun is would agree. Especially if it was shooting good before.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Nup...and yes lol the black dots are the 42gr, the red dots are the 41.5gr the blue are 42.5 and the fluro are 43gr. My intention now is to shoot more groups of the 42...and see what I get....and as for stop posting about it....forums are like TV, peeps can always change the channel to
suit their viewing preferences

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Originally Posted by Zedrex

I don't "know" that the load is bad, as many have pointed out, I don't have enough data.....

The ONLY place I've heard the expectation that a given projectile should perform in a similar fashion regardless of the charge weight.....is this forum.........

Maybe 3 shots can't be used to confirm good accuracy but it can be used to exclude it. If 3 shots are worse than your required outcome for 10/20/30 then it will only grow or at best stay the same therefore that load may as well be excused.

I agree with @gimp i assume you just want a good load, to go hunt with and whilst somehow this threads got confrontational, its just people trying to save you time and money because they have already gone down these rabbit holes. They followed the status quo myself included. I've made reloading harder that it needed to be. But if your one that must learn by experience go for it but if your going to do a straight experiment yourself because most of us are going to tell you it probably doesn't matter. Shit ole no load development @gimp is even about to do a test to see if a mandrel die helps his Sds but he's assuming it won't until its shows it does.

Here's another source btw of similar logic. With people paid to do large sample size testing.

https://youtu.be/6krIptRw-j0?si=u8Fam8PxsHl91FNq

How about this for a slightly different approach. If you're 42gn load gives you around an inch or less consistently at 100yrds. This let's you make sight adjustments. Then you need to do three trips to the range or so. After you make your sight adjustments to your wanted zero distance. Take rifle home and either clean it or not. Depending on how you store it. Some do a full clean. Others do just an oil in the bore for protection, then remove that oil before use. They only do a full clean after a certain amount of rounds, say 50-100 Depending on the rifle and how it holds it accuracy and carbon ring build up.
But it needs to be in the condition you're going to fire your first shot on a hunt.
Then take it to the range and fire one shot at your maximum range or there abouts. If your maximum is 300. Then there or even 250 would do. Since you're shooting big game. You have a 12 inch area for a good kill or there abouts. Put a target up that size and fire one shot. See where it hits and don't make any adjustments. Take rifle home and repeat next range day. If it lands about the same place and wind is the same. Make an adjustment then. Take home and repeat. Do this until it hits where you want and it is on the first shot. Fire a second and maybe a third if it does. If those two land into that 12 inch circle your job is done. You're not shooting targets. You aren't putting 10 shots into a deer. You need to hit it with the first and it's surprised mate with the second. Moa for more than three shots is for target shooters or maybe varmit hunters. Not big game hunters. You only need good grouping for initial sight adjustments. Don't over think it. If you want to dial then chronograph that first shot each time. That way you can dial to the true speed. A lot of guns seem to gain 10-30fps after the first cold shot. As Gimp says out to 400ish even that won't make difference. Don't over think this or waste ammo chasing an average group size you don't actually need. First 3 on target area at the range you are going to shoot too consistently. Only if that fails do you need to change something.
Most shooters can't shoot to the potential of their rifle. I know because I'm one of them! And the less I shoot, then that ability decreases even more. Practice firing just one shot at various ranges and get used to your rifle. My one shot groups are ALWAYS less than moa. It's getting them on target consistently is the hard part!

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This thread has gone the same way as the last one this guy started. Someone who knows so little, that resents being told anything, while pretending to ask for help. A waste of everyone's time.

I dont see it that way.

Look the ideas expressed by those "professing" knowledge, are going against common practice. I think there's something in them, but I always am attracted to things that seem to make my life simple.

It was others getting irritated when Zedrex asked reasonable questions on that that took it down hill.

The validity of it all is up for debate.

Also if whatever method you choose, brings you the results you want, then it dosent matter! Sometimes the process you enjoy will bring best results because you want it too.

James...James...James....James...James....I seem to recall you getting all antsy some time back and stating that spirepoints were better than blunt round nose....until someone directed you to a certain page number..... Take a chill pill bud.zeddy will get there in the end,he doesn't have to agree with us all. And has admitted he likes to ....have robust discussion. We all work things out differently. Let it go bud.

He should put his reloading dies down, and step away from them slowly

Looking at those groups, it’s hard to imagine that the 42gr group is because of good barrel harmonics. The bigger groups make me think that there was some sort of interference in your shooting setup/technique, my initial instinct is that at least two aspects are out of sync.

I will concede that there is some reading of the tea leaves in this, and that is because due to limited data sets we are trying to look at a big picture through a small window, but I have looked at a lot of groups over the years, and certain patterns have a hint within. I can’t spell it all out, it’s more instinctive than data driven, and I wouldn’t bet my truck on it either, but I would be confident that the 41.5 and the 42.5 could shoot much tighter if the 42.0 is genuinely as consistent as the reading of it’s five shot group may infer.

If the 41.5 is three holes for 5 on paper it points to an uncontrolled variable, because twice you got two shots through the same hole, but in two separate places.

The other option is two rounds aren’t even on paper, which shouldn’t and I would say wouldn’t be because of being a 1/2 grain difference or to look at that half grain more objectively, it’s a 1.19% difference. It will far more likely be due to a significant issue in setup/technique.


My best read from what I can see is that the 42 gr group is more likely due to good shooting than good reloading, and the size of the other groups is more likely due to issues with setup/technique than going outside of a harmonic node.

Again I concede that this is at best a guess based on limited data.

All that being said, it’s hard to look at a stopped clock only when it is showing the correct time, even though it shows that twice a day, you’re 42gr load is worth further investigation, but don’t use it as a recipe to load 50 just yet.

Reading this thread got me to thinking if there was a way to visually represent some of the primary factors and their order of importance ('effect size') relative to load precision, that might be helpful to newcomers. I'm only a little further up the reloading mountain than the OP by the looks, but I like to read and try and condense information to better understand the overarching principles at play.

I was wondering if the following diagram might help capture some of this...happy to be corrected or have this expanded upon if useful.

Earplay that's an awesome visual!

Originally Posted by Stocky

"I've already shown that my 1:10 twist in this particular rifle does not like boat tail projectiles AT ALL"

That would make me assume you have tried boat tail projectiles. Being that 95 NBT or even the TMK will usually stabalise in a 10 twist. As will a 90 ELD-X. I would have expected you to have tried these as you have talked about getting the most from the 243 in other threads. So yes i made assumptions.

I said equivalent to wives tails as it it gets repeated but there's not proof. Ie that nodes are in anyway able to be tuned. Almost all assumptions in reloading havent been proven. I'm not saying they couldn't be true but I would assume they aren't unless you can prove otherwise.

The groups of 3 was about people that show "evidence of tuning loads" not about you at all. I use 3 shot groups often but as a way to exclude loads. If a 3 shot group is bad that combination is done.

Could you explain the BT comment I dont want to assume what you mean?

I also made a comment saying your probably not a bad shooter and that it's usually the rifle in good shooting conditions with comfortable setups that mostly contributes. If you saw bad results it was likely a bad combination for your gun is would agree. Especially if it was shooting good before.

OK, let me clarify the first statement you quoted, from a limited data set I've shown that my 243 does not like Boat tail factory ammo from 2 different manufacturers at 2 different weights (100gr Fiocchi and 95g Winchester BST) both these were "all over the place" and using your own logic of "If a 3 shot group is bad that combination is done" I've exceeded that data set gathering by a factor of 7, so I believe my statement holds true that from the data available THIS particular rifle doesn't like BT projectiles, I suppose I could try EVERY boattail out there to gather further evidence but at this point, I don't feel it's necessarry, especially as I have plenty of historical data that the rifle favour flatbase projectiles a la Deer Season XP, ergo my choice of the SST in 95grain to build up a load.

I agree there's a lot that may be assumed but there's also anecdotal evidence of people tuning their loads to match the harmonics of their rifle and logic (and physics) says this must actually be possible, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction so the frequency/duration of the vibration of the barrel will be directly proportional to the size of the bang, thus tuning to have the bullet leave the muzzle at a certain point of the wave.

My BT (boattail) comment comes from my research and I found a lot of commentary that flatbase bullets are "easier to get accurate" than "boattails that are less forgiving of variables" and yes I'm paraphrasing and no I can't recall the source(s) but it was more than one which was also reinforced by an article for which I posted a link on one of my other threads.

AND I really do get that y'all are trying to help and it's appreciated, it truly is AND I'm still going to question what y'all are telling me, not because I think all y'all are talking shite but because I need to know how you know what you know. @gimp is a prime example of someone who backs up his statements with historical evidence and that gets my attention, as does the fact that he doesn't start crying when I question what he offers. I'm not LOOKING for an argument, I'm seeking a discussion that explores a number of elements without the "because I said so" bullshit