Thread: .243 load development part deux

Originally Posted by gimp

The important thing with the right-hand side of this table is that the correction factor, e.g. from 3-shot to 5-shot groups is for an AVERAGE group, and you need to shoot 10+ 3-shot groups to obtain a reasonable average

Yes its averages it can't be used to predict how big another groups size will be.

Originally Posted by r87mm

Been an interesting thread. Imo there's a couple of things at play here. Firstly it appears some people don't know the difference between target/range accuracy and hunting accuracy. They are very different things and it appears some think they need a rifle to be able to shoot tiny groups consistently over multilabel shots to shot animals where you only ever fire one or two mostly. So three shots is sufficient into the kill zone at your maximum distance consistently for your ability . Then you know if something goes wrong on your first shot, you are likely to make a hit with your second. Es imo is very important. If you have very low velocity difference, then your loading procedure is working. If you have big velocity differences from even a small group then you need to find out why and change something in your loading technique . Es isn't to show accuracy primarily . There are other things for that. If your load isn't accurate then there's something wrong with the shooter, rifle , load components. Probably in that order. Fixing one or more of those will sort your accuracy.

Could you show where es makes a significant difference inside 400m (which is a long shot)?

Also by that logic all guys shoot 0moa 1 shot groups and since we only need one shot that's perfect.

No one is saying it needs to shoot 30 shots in a row but they are saying your first 3 shots could be anyone of those 30 shots so you do need to know what your rifle might do.

Just because you hit 3 shots at your hunting range doesn't mean you will hit the next 3

Does any of this define what the rifle can do without the shooter having input? It would be interesting to see what a rifle grouped like set up in a mechanical vise of some sort, (removing a shooters ability from the equation) and then compare that to what the same rifle does with a shooter behind it. Any variance must be down to the human factor. People could then happily say "my rifle shoots sub MOA"......but I don't"

Originally Posted by Shearer

Does any of this define what the rifle can do without the shooter having input? It would be interesting to see what a rifle grouped like set up in a mechanical vise of some sort, (removing a shooters ability from the equation) and then compare that to what the same rifle does with a shooter behind it. Any variance must be down to the human factor. People could then happily say "my rifle shoots sub MOA"......but I don't"

You'd need to shoot about a 50 shot sample of each.

I think my shooter error prone with a bipod & rear bag is maybe adding a couple of tenths of a MOA to a 10 shot group. I can and have shot 10rd groups down below 0.5moa. Can't be that much shooter error component

You guys obviously enjoy the high level esoteric discussions and banter. Way over my head. And in practical terms I don't quite understand what the OP is seeking?

Im thinking about my 22 Creedmoor and boiling it down to practical hunting accuracy.

I went straight to max book loads and book OAL. Ive fired about 10 3 shot groups with it. 3 different bullets (70,80 & 88). Discarded 88 grn after 2x3 shots. Never over a MOA with other 2 and always same point of impact. Same powder and OAL. So thats about 24 shots into circa 1 moa. If it was 1.5MOA I wouldn't wring my hands over it.

Lent it to Craig and he hunted a couple of times with it. Dialed for one shot at 650 and got a deer. Back to me, dialed for one shot, 300 yd rabbit.

To the OP I envisage your 42 grn load doing the same thing.

Thats hunting accuracy.

Good platform, reliable scope, no fuss load development. Go home.

Originally Posted by Tahr

You guys obviously enjoy the high level esoteric discussions and banter. Way over my head. And in practical terms I don't quite understand what the OP is seeking?

Im thinking about my 22 Creedmoor and boiling it down to practical hunting accuracy.

I went straight to max book loads and book OAL. Ive fired about 10 3 shot groups with it. 3 different bullets (70,80 & 88). Discarded 88 grn after 2x3 shots. Never over a MOA with other 2 and always same point of impact. Same powder and OAL. So thats about 24 shots into circa 1 moa. If it was 1.5MOA I wouldn't wring my hands over it.

Lent it to Craig and he hunted a couple of times with it. Dialed for one shot at 650 and got a deer. Back to me, dialed for one shot, 300 yd rabbit.

To the OP I envisage your 42 grn load doing the same thing.

Thats hunting accuracy.

Good platform, reliable scope, no fuss load development. Go home.

Thank God for some sanity.

Originally Posted by Tahr

You guys obviously enjoy the high level esoteric discussions and banter. Way over my head. And in practical terms I don't quite understand what the OP is seeking?

Im thinking about my 22 Creedmoor and boiling it down to practical hunting accuracy.

I went straight to max book loads and book OAL. Ive fired about 10 3 shot groups with it. 3 different bullets (70,80 & 88). Discarded 88 grn after 2x3 shots. Never over a MOA with other 2 and always same point of impact. Same powder and OAL. So thats about 24 shots into circa 1 moa. If it was 1.5MOA I wouldn't wring my hands over it.

Lent it to Craig and he hunted a couple of times with it. Dialed for one shot at 650 and got a deer. Back to me, dialed for one shot, 300 yd rabbit.

To the OP I envisage your 42 grn load doing the same thing.

Thats hunting accuracy.

Good platform, reliable scope, no fuss load development. Go home.

Yep. I dont really consider this a very practical discussion. It's honestly not that hard.

Originally Posted by gimp

You'd need to shoot about a 50 shot sample of each.

I think my shooter error prone with a bipod & rear bag is maybe adding a couple of tenths of a MOA to a 10 shot group. I can and have shot 10rd groups down below 0.5moa. Can't be that much shooter error component

Yes. But I'm sure not everyone can say that.
The last 4 rifles I have "developed" loads for, the job has been done in 10 rounds or less. That includes zeroing. I don't expect, or need, 1/2 MOA accuracy so am happy if I am confident I can cleanly take a deer (or whatever) at ranges I am comfortable with. This obviously varies with conditions.
To the OP. As the last few posts have pointed out, it's not that complicated or difficult.

It's not that hard, complicated, or difficult when you have years of experience behind you, to know what information to chuck out, and what info to take notice of.

Some times I think some of you guys forget that.

Also... It's the middle of winter....and approaching time of evening for a whiskey..... Let the discussion live long and prosper... As long as no one looses their rag.

Wonder if anyone else twigged the deer season projectiles isn't a SST at all....it might even be shorter/ more dumpy... Gunworks have plenty of options in stock.85 GRN sierra looks interesting option.

Originally Posted by Tahr

You guys obviously enjoy the high level esoteric discussions and banter. Way over my head. And in practical terms I don't quite understand what the OP is seeking?

Im thinking about my 22 Creedmoor and boiling it down to practical hunting accuracy.

I went straight to max book loads and book OAL. Ive fired about 10 3 shot groups with it. 3 different bullets (70,80 & 88). Discarded 88 grn after 2x3 shots. Never over a MOA with other 2 and always same point of impact. Same powder and OAL. So thats about 24 shots into circa 1 moa. If it was 1.5MOA I wouldn't wring my hands over it.

Lent it to Craig and he hunted a couple of times with it. Dialed for one shot at 650 and got a deer. Back to me, dialed for one shot, 300 yd rabbit.

To the OP I envisage your 42 grn load doing the same thing.

Thats hunting accuracy.

Good platform, reliable scope, no fuss load development. Go home.

I agree with all yoru statements eexcept it dont think the 42 grain loads likely to repeat it performance. In front of peopl from the forum at the sparrowhaek shoot I took a 2moa 223 to 1100yards I missed shot 1 at 800 due to wind made a correction then made repeated first round hits on 900 1000 and 1100. Big your right about hunting accuracy

Originally Posted by Shearer

Yes. But I'm sure not everyone can say that.
The last 4 rifles I have "developed" loads for, the job has been done in 10 rounds or less. That includes zeroing. I don't expect, or need, 1/2 MOA accuracy so am happy if I am confident I can cleanly take a deer (or whatever) at ranges I am comfortable with. This obviously varies with conditions.
To the OP. As the last few posts have pointed out, it's not that complicated or difficult.

I think everyone can in bench of comfortable prone. Ive found beginners short or flinching will shoot nearly as good groups in these conditions as myself with low recoiling rifles. With high recoiling rifles or unsuppressed/braked rifles that does not apply as flinch starts coming into play fast.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Wonder if anyone else twigged the deer season projectiles isn't a SST at all....it might even be shorter/ more dumpy... Gunworks have plenty of options in stock.85 GRN sierra looks interesting option.

It's definitely not a 95 sst they aren't available as components the ballistic tip is giant and they have a huge hollowpoint behind it.

@Zedrex i know your resistant to boattails would you try a rebated boat tail which according to the same people that like flat bases has the same benefits. Targex are cheap and they make a 95 version. @Tahr can vouche for there performance at an affordable rate.

Originally Posted by Shearer

Yes. But I'm sure not everyone can say that.
The last 4 rifles I have "developed" loads for, the job has been done in 10 rounds or less. That includes zeroing. I don't expect, or need, 1/2 MOA accuracy so am happy if I am confident I can cleanly take a deer (or whatever) at ranges I am comfortable with. This obviously varies with conditions.
To the OP. As the last few posts have pointed out, it's not that complicated or difficult.

Yeah the last 10 or so "loads" I've "developed" have been 10rd and done. It isn't hard. All the esoteric detail is just talking people off the ledge of tail-chasing insanity


Literally all I'm pushing is a very very simple approach, yet it seems like people want to frame it as more complicated somehow