Thread: .243 load development part deux

@Zedrex after 250 posts if you cant get this 243 to shoot which in itself an inherently accurate calibre chuck it away and go buy another gun
Plenty of good advice been given most of which you argue
If the next guns the same the problem is you go buy a fishing rod

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Originally Posted by BRADS

@Zedrex after 250 posts if you cant get this 243 to shoot which in itself an inherently accurate calibre chuck it away and go buy another gun
Plenty of good advice been given
If the next guns the same the problem is you go buy a fishing rod

Sent from my SM-S936B using Tapatalk

Post of the year!!!!!!

Originally Posted by BRADS

@Zedrex after 250 posts if you cant get this 243 to shoot which in itself an inherently accurate calibre chuck it away and go buy another gun
Plenty of good advice been given most of which you argue
If the next guns the same the problem is you go buy a fishing rod

Sent from my SM-S936B using Tapatalk

Do you feel better for that?

Originally Posted by Roarless20

Its very hard to tell if its just grainy pictures with material fluff or if its very rough right at the crown (this needs to be very sharp at the bore/crown junction.). I personally would get it bore scoped to determine if it just needs a crown touch up or if it needs a trim off the barrel to get back to good bore + a recrown.
Pity your not in the Nth Island as i would help sort it for you and give you a barrel cleaning lesson.

Yeah, not the best pictures, from what I can see the crown is looking pretty good, good sharp edge all the way round at the crown to barrel but there is a very slight deviation on one part of the crown to muzzle face which you have to look hard to see, by which I mean the bevel narrows very slightly, looking at my mental feeler gauges I'd call it 0.1 of a mil

Originally Posted by Zedrex

I get where you're coming from but tbf I think you're getting a bit carried away, I can hit a 6" gong close to centre all day long with this rifle and one shot kills on deer out to 300m so I don't think the scopes an issue nor is hunting accuracy BUT the limited data I have so far has raised questions, which I hope to answer by going through the process. Boretech noted, I'll grab some and give it a go.
I've got my preferred projectile so UNTIL it's proven bad there's no reason to go off on a tangent with different projectiles is there, tbh it feels like you're throwing "possible solutions at "possible issue's" on what we all agree isn't a big enough sample size but all will become clear tomorrow, weather permitting

This thread has certainly been a journey, it’s been over 10 years since I have been more confident in my own loads than factory, but I still learned a lot reading through all of this.

Regarding what is quoted above, I agree, I think the best most productive thing you can do is shoot a bit more and get some more data.
But in agreeance with MD, I would suggest if you can’t establish a reasonable benchmark with factory, you should check your setup and technique.
If your rifle/operator is grouping wide, then trying to QC loads with it, is like trying to measure mm with a ruler that only goes as low as cm. At a cost of ~$15 per measurement.

At the very least it would be prudent to give the barrel a good clean with solvent. Remove the bipod from the equation as it is a variable, and get yourself in a position where you can remain in a consistent position behind the rifle.

If you cant personally get a satisfactory five shot group with the factory, have a friend try it. If they also cannot do it, then you are probably better to call it a day on the range and look at the rifle more closely.

The other option, and I suspect it may be your preffered option would be to shoot ten with the 42gr load. If it’s decent, adjust zero according to POI, and shoot another three-five to confirm.
Just be ready to call it a day early, in the event that the previous success is not repeatable.

Originally Posted by longshot

This thread has certainly been a journey, it’s been over 10 years since I have been more confident in my own loads than factory, but I still learned a lot reading through all of this.

Regarding what is quoted above, I agree, I think the best most productive thing you can do is shoot a bit more and get some more data.
But in agreeance with MD, I would suggest if you can’t establish a reasonable benchmark with factory, you should check your setup and technique.
If your rifle/operator is grouping wide, then trying to QC loads with it, is like trying to measure mm with a ruler that only goes as low as cm. At a cost of ~$15 per measurement.

At the very least it would be prudent to give the barrel a good clean with solvent. Remove the bipod from the equation as it is a variable, and get yourself in a position where you can remain in a consistent position behind the rifle.

If you cant personally get a satisfactory five shot group with the factory, have a friend try it. If they also cannot do it, then you are probably better to call it a day on the range and look at the rifle more closely.

The other option, and I suspect it may be your preffered option would be to shoot ten with the 42gr load. If it’s decent, adjust zero according to POI, and shoot another three-five to confirm.
Just be ready to call it a day early, in the event that the previous success is not repeatable.

Agreed but not on the bipod that seems to be removing one variable and introducing another more varied variable. If the factory ammo is all over the place with the other part of this equation shooting it then yeah it will be time to look more closely at the system. TBH I'm not sure that I agree that my rifle and my technique and the planets suddenly aligned to have me shoot the 42gr into a sub MOA group (and I'm entirely willing to be proven wrong on that) hopefully this rain pisses off and I can gather statistically relevant data......failing that, somewhere in the world it's always beer o'clock!

When you shoot enough groups, you get some good ones. This rifle shoots mean right?


Give it a 10rd group


Ah


Just have to train our brains not to trust small samples even though we intuitively ascribe meaning to them

Good luck at the range, keen to see the results.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

TBH I'm not sure that I agree that my rifle and my technique and the planets suddenly aligned to have me shoot the 42gr into a sub MOA group (and I'm entirely willing to be proven wrong on that)

I would pick its more likely than not. But the only way your position can be proven wrong is with more conclusive testing of the adjacent loads. And my predicted result of that scenario if it were to occur, would be that their accuracy would be more similar than what we have seen so far.
After reading this thread, I am personally reconsidering much of my own approach to load development. But having (productively or otherwise) tested dozens of load ladders in various calibers, I can say I have never seen such a small increment of change in charge weight, result in such a dramatic change in accuracy.

A front bag vs a bipod may have some effect on your POI, but it is more consistent, which is better for validating accuracy. Think of it like a datum line that is out by 70mm but out by exactly that much at any point on the line, vs a datum line that is out by anywhere between 15-55mm depending on which point you measure from.
While a bipod feels easier to shoot off, they are known to cause flyers off the bench.
Eliminating that variable could shrink your groups should they remain wide after exhausting elimination of all other possibilities.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Yeah, not the best pictures, from what I can see the crown is looking pretty good, good sharp edge all the way round at the crown to barrel but there is a very slight deviation on one part of the crown to muzzle face which you have to look hard to see, by which I mean the bevel narrows very slightly, looking at my mental feeler gauges I'd call it 0.1 of a mil

Funny how you can spot a "0.1 mm" variation in the crown, but up until now you haven't taken any notice of the charcoal and copper in your barrel.
I suspect you might have got lucky with the 42 grain load.
Clean the crud out and you might find the other loads groups shrink too.

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Funny how you can spot a "0.1 mm" variation in the crown, but up until now you haven't taken any notice of the charcoal and copper in your barrel.
I suspect you might have got lucky with the 42 grain load.
Clean the crud out and you might find the other loads groups shrink too.

That's because I was looking "properly"............

My money is on the 42grn load. It was a 5 shot group with good shape. The others were 3 shot groups.
We need an end to this.

Originally Posted by Tahr

My money is on the 42grn load.
We need an end to this.

I reckon too and ya ain't wrong, I'm exhausted!

Originally Posted by gimp

Just have to train our brains not to trust small samples even though we intuitively ascribe meaning to them

Good luck at the range, keen to see the results.

Agreed, one of the MANY things I've learned on this thread is just that, more shots required to be able to draw a more reliable conclusion on a given load, it's been a great discuss

Originally Posted by longshot

I would pick its more likely than not. But the only way your position can be proven wrong is with more conclusive testing of the adjacent loads. And my predicted result of that scenario if it were to occur, would be that their accuracy would be more similar than what we have seen so far.
After reading this thread, I am personally reconsidering much of my own approach to load development. But having (productively or otherwise) tested dozens of load ladders in various calibers, I can say I have never seen such a small increment of change in charge weight, result in such a dramatic change in accuracy.

A front bag vs a bipod may have some effect on your POI, but it is more consistent, which is better for validating accuracy. Think of it like a datum line that is out by 70mm but out by exactly that much at any point on the line, vs a datum line that is out by anywhere between 15-55mm depending on which point you measure from.
While a bipod feels easier to shoot off, they are known to cause flyers off the bench.
Eliminating that variable could shrink your groups should they remain wide after exhausting elimination of all other possibilities.

I am looking forward to seeing what occurs at the range tomorrow, re bipod vs bag is that because the bag has a greater dampening effect or just a more consistent position and I'll be sure to bring that into the testing tomorrow, looks like a long day at the range, I better take some smoko

Originally Posted by Zedrex

I get where you're coming from but tbf I think you're getting a bit carried away, I can hit a 6" gong close to centre all day long with this rifle and one shot kills on deer out to 300m so I don't think the scopes an issue nor is hunting accuracy BUT the limited data I have so far has raised questions, which I hope to answer by going through the process. Boretech noted, I'll grab some and give it a go.
I've got my preferred projectile so UNTIL it's proven bad there's no reason to go off on a tangent with different projectiles is there, tbh it feels like you're throwing "possible solutions at "possible issue's" on what we all agree isn't a big enough sample size but all will become clear tomorrow, weather permitting

I will bet you your next box of 95 ssts or whatever crappy flatbase your decide you need that if I put a 6 inch gong at 300m you would miss a majority of the shots based on your groupings you have shown in this page.

Centred would suggest middle 3rd so a 2 inch group at 300m. You can hardly hold that at 100m from a bench by evidence in this thread. A deer is a massive target and takes hardly anything to hit. Your only deer season factory group was ~1.5 inchs for 3 shots its not confidence inspiring for that claim.

For hunting deer yeh its absolutely practical but a deer's a big target and realistically they die if you hit them in most of an 16x14 inch rectangle.

Im not adding problems im going through the list of things that cost nothing first. What do you have to lose unmounting and remounting a scope to insure there's no issue. Your zero will still be on enough to be on paper. Probably within an inch or 2 at 100.

Cleaning the copper is just good maintenance when its that obvious.

The projectiles are the next step id try if the above didn't solve it then the crown final.

The answer is go shoot some groups stop talking about it.

@gimp when are we doing another forum hunter shoot @Zedrex you should come along

Anyway im out until there's decent sample testing done