Thread: .243 load development part deux

So your rifle shot as well uncleaned as it did cleaned, and your 42 grn grouping held consistently from start to finish. And you need to still work on your shooting technique. Yes?

What was it you actually learnt save for your first batch of 42 grn was a useful indicator and you just needed a larger sample to confirm it.

Originally Posted by Tahr

So your rifle shot as well uncleaned as it did cleaned, and your 42 grn grouping held consistently from start to finish. And you need to still work on your shooting technique. Yes?

What was it you actually learnt save for your first batch of 42 grn was a useful indicator and you just needed a larger sample to confirm it.

If you look at the targets, comparing dirty and clean it's clear that the rifle shoots much tighter cleaned, so I learned that (and how to clean the barrel properly) and I learned I'm better off a bipod than a benchrest, which is convenient as I'd hate to have to lug a benchrest up the tops!
And yes, shooting more proved the load, confidence in ones load is an important part of the whole imo, now to go shoot some veni!

Originally Posted by Zedrex

If you look at the targets, comparing dirty and clean it's clear that the rifle shoots much tighter cleaned, so I learned that (and how to clean the barrel properly) and I learned I'm better off a bipod than a benchrest, which is convenient as I'd hate to have to lug a benchrest up the tops!
And yes, shooting more proved the load, confidence in ones load is an important part of the whole imo, now to go shoot some veni!

Didnt the 42 grn load shoot the same uncleaned and cleaned?

Good to see the results, kudos to you for posting them. The 95s with 2209 go OK in your rifle, perfectly fine for hunting to 300+ metres. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from your bench versus bipod groups, the wide variation suggests to me that you need to build greater consistency into your rifle hold.

It's not a heavy rig and "light" rifles really show up one's technique. I was recently struggling with this and found the approach in this video made a considerable improvement https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKCViW-lfus . This is subtle stuff and is as much in your head as physical.

All the best!

Originally Posted by Tentman

Good to see the results, kudos to you for posting them. The 95s with 2209 go OK in your rifle, perfectly fine for hunting to 300+ metres. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from your bench versus bipod groups, the wide variation suggests to me that you need to build greater consistency into your rifle hold.

It's not a heavy rig and "light" rifles really show up one's technique. I was recently struggling with this and found the approach in this video made a considerable improvement https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKCViW-lfus . This is subtle stuff and is as much in your head as physical.

All the best!

I have a lot of trouble shooting my Kimber Hunter consistently well. It's all about me, and I haven't figured it yet.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Didnt the 42 grn load shoot the same uncleaned and cleaned?

Uncleaned it shot 1.14 MOA, cleaned it shot 0.65, so almost a 50% improvement, or almost 100% depending on which way you work the math (not my strong point)

Originally Posted by Tentman

Good to see the results, kudos to you for posting them. The 95s with 2209 go OK in your rifle, perfectly fine for hunting to 300+ metres. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from your bench versus bipod groups, the wide variation suggests to me that you need to build greater consistency into your rifle hold.

It's not a heavy rig and "light" rifles really show up one's technique. I was recently struggling with this and found the approach in this video made a considerable improvement https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKCViW-lfus . This is subtle stuff and is as much in your head as physical.

All the best!

Cheers for posting that link, the one thing that particularly "lept out" was the handhold. I've BIG hands and the Franchi is built to a common average with the result that my hand swamps the grip and I think I compensate for this by wrapping my hand over itself so I feel I've a good grip but probably I'm actually strangling it then there's the eye relief issue, having put a BIG pad on the butt to correct the LOP has pushed my shoulder backwards relative to the scope so I have to reach to get my eye where it needs to be, going to correct this by replacing the 2 piece OEM dovetail with a one piece rail over the breach (there's room without fouling ejection) so I can slide the scope backwards to get correct eye relief, all of which is a fix until I'm in a position to buy a better rifle that fits me, especially the palm swell on the grip, I noticed it looked like the grip in the video had a lot of wood in that area and he'd built up his grip on the original stock with something to get a better fit by the looks. For sure my technique needs work and time on the range helps in this, as my mentor mentioned, the more time behind the trigger the better and it's likely that without going down the reloading path, I would not have spent as much time at the range as I have and would not have formed the clear picture I now have of what does and doesn't work with my current rifle........so down the custom build route is where I'll be going, being tall is a blessing and a curse, easy to get served at a busy bar but nothing fits off the shelf!

No doubt someone more learned will chime in, but it looks like you've reduced your sample size on your later tests (or manipulated variables within the larger sample), which makes it a bit hard to compare results. I guess at least with more overall data, you've got a better sense of what the rifle in it's current configuration is likely capable of. It was helpful to have the target showing another shooter behind the trigger for comparison.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Finally!
So TL : DR As my first foray into handloading I wanted to develop a round that performed as well as if not better than Win Deer Season...mission accomplished
@gimp here you go, thoughts?

So the first four targets presented are "testing" after "development" and grouping being sub par.....I was told to clean my f'in barrel, which I did. I think the targets are pretty self explanatory.
Attachment 280349
Attachment 280350

To remove the nut behind the trigger variable, a proven shooter sent 10 down range

Attachment 280351

And just because I still had some, I sent some Fiocchi 100gr BT's with (to me) predictable results
Attachment 280352

So after this and with guidance from helpful souls in here I and my mentor subjected the barrel to a thorough clean (top tip, if you want someone else to clean your rifle, just "accidently" leave it behind at their place, activity beats boredom everytime

The following were shot in 2 x 5RD groups at the given powder weight one group off bipod followed by off Benchrest, between each 5RD group the barrel was allowed to cool, whilst I walked down range to mark the first group and remove/reattach bipod
After 10RDS at the given powder weight, I pulled a dry bore snake through to return the barrel "cleaned" state and allowed the barrel to cool for 15 minutes whilst I let doggo out to stretch his legs and have a cuppa, me, not doggo.

First was the deer season to get my head in the game, adjust zero and to refoul the barrel, you can see how everything tightens up over the 10RDS
Attachment 280353
Then 10RDS at the given powder weights
Attachment 280354
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Attachment 280356

Finally and because someone here suggested it, I did a 5RD group without the suppressor, I stopped at 5 because damn that's loud and there were maybe 10 cops with Gloks and Bushmaster's on the 20 metre range about 50m away and did I mention damn it's loud?!!
Attachment 280357

It's been a fascinating journey and along the way I've learnt some, got more questions and become far more aware of and critical of my shooting technique. It was also interesting to note that I shoot better off a bipod than a bench.

Deer Season - uncleaned - 9shots- 2.55moa (25% larger within the 30 average expected increase from a 5 to 10 shot group so not conclusive)
Deer Season - cleaned - 5 shots - 1.99moa

95sst - uncleaned - 10 shots - 3.20moa
95sst - uncleaned - 10 shots - new shooter - 3.45moa (within expected 30-40 variance from the average in 10 shot group size. Maybe suggests less shooter input if this is a known good shooter or atleast that poor rifle precision is drowning it out)

100 fiocchi 10 shot 4.68moa (concludes this is a shit combo for this gun

41.8g - 95 sst - 5 shot - bench - 2.62moa
41.8g - 95 sst - 5 shot - bipod - 1.91moa
Est 10 shot is 2.75moa

42g - 95 sst - 5 shot - bench - 2.45moa
42g - 95 sst - 5 shot - bipod - 1.57moa
Est 10 shot is 2.45moa

42.2g - 95 sst - 5 shot - bench - 1.44moa
42.2g - 95 sst - 5 shot - bipod - 1.69moa
Est 10 shot is 1.9moa
(This batch only had 9 counted shots 1 poi in the calculator isnt on a hole but has an unaccounted shot that blows it out to 3.5-4moa way low and left).

Average of all cleaned 5 shot 95 sst loads is 1.95moa
Expected variance from average is plus or minus 40-50% (roughly 1moa to 3moa) all loads fall within this so nothing conclusive or statistically significant.

Using 10 shots to compare to pre cleaning to post cleaning for the 95 sst. We have an average of 2.75moa (i think its higher as that last group appears to be 4moa) expected variation of plus or minus 30-40% gives
1.65moa to 3.85moa again everything falls within this range. Including the suppressor free load.

It seems like this rifle has poor precision in these combos. It keeps coming back to the expected precision values over 3moa. Even with Deer Season which hasn't statistically shown its better.

If that level of precision has met your requirements then great if not I would try something else.

Originally Posted by Tentman

Good to see the results, kudos to you for posting them. The 95s with 2209 go OK in your rifle, perfectly fine for hunting to 300+ metres. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from your bench versus bipod groups, the wide variation suggests to me that you need to build greater consistency into your rifle hold.

It's not a heavy rig and "light" rifles really show up one's technique. I was recently struggling with this and found the approach in this video made a considerable improvement https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKCViW-lfus . This is subtle stuff and is as much in your head as physical.

All the best!

Im not sure id say a 3plus moa loads 300m plus precision maybe 300m max. I really should get the WEZ. @gimp could run a sim for that precision with average wind calling ability and his combo.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Uncleaned it shot 1.14 MOA, cleaned it shot 0.65, so almost a 50% improvement, or almost 100% depending on which way you work the math (not my strong point)

The 42 grain load shot 2.45moa this time cleaned that's worse. The 42.2 grain load shot smaller but you missed a shot and its within expected statistical noise.
Your looking too hard to make conclusions you should assume you know nothing until its unarguable via statistically significant proof.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Cheers for posting that link, the one thing that particularly "lept out" was the handhold. I've BIG hands and the Franchi is built to a common average with the result that my hand swamps the grip and I think I compensate for this by wrapping my hand over itself so I feel I've a good grip but probably I'm actually strangling it then there's the eye relief issue, having put a BIG pad on the butt to correct the LOP has pushed my shoulder backwards relative to the scope so I have to reach to get my eye where it needs to be, going to correct this by replacing the 2 piece OEM dovetail with a one piece rail over the breach (there's room without fouling ejection) so I can slide the scope backwards to get correct eye relief, all of which is a fix until I'm in a position to buy a better rifle that fits me, especially the palm swell on the grip, I noticed it looked like the grip in the video had a lot of wood in that area and he'd built up his grip on the original stock with something to get a better fit by the looks. For sure my technique needs work and time on the range helps in this, as my mentor mentioned, the more time behind the trigger the better and it's likely that without going down the reloading path, I would not have spent as much time at the range as I have and would not have formed the clear picture I now have of what does and doesn't work with my current rifle........so down the custom build route is where I'll be going, being tall is a blessing and a curse, easy to get served at a busy bar but nothing fits off the shelf!

I had an eye relief issue recently with a scope with very long eye relief and a very short lop and found i couldn't shoot it prone comfortably and then I just had the same where it was a short eye relief scope and it was only good prone. Its never translated meaningfully to precision and that rifles precison was higher than easier to get behind rifles. I did find I struggled to do a large sample behind the uncomfortable rifle and would expect it to maybe cause in the field issues.

If the custom space is a big spend for you id hold off. It's a bigger loss if you get it wrong compared to standard rifles ie you lose the entire rebarreling cost people. Id try a few second hand rifles and "rent" them ie buy them used shoot them then sell them if you buy for a decent rpice it costs very little. It will atleast mean you start your base with something you like. Unless your willing to just own a tikka which is the safe custom bet. I lost a lot on my first custom building without truly knowing what I wanted (I thought I did). Ive got a couple kimbers of you wanted to shoot/handle a few and a few howa minis. Obviously heaps of tikkas around and remington 700s and there clones etc.

Even now id not rebarrel unless i had feeding and function completely sorted in a similar round.

So in summary...it's shit. Either shit shooting,shit set up,shit scope/rings/bases/stock screws......shit ammunition choice or just plain everyday shit.its a plurry modern.243 if it isn't doing better than honest inch SOMETHING is drastically wrong .

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

So in summary...it's shit. Either shit shooting,shit set up,shit scope/rings/bases/stock screws......shit ammunition choice or just plain everyday shit.its a plurry modern.243 if it isn't doing better than honest inch SOMETHING is drastically wrong .

Not quite the point I was making more that theres no conclusive evidence in any loads shooting better or worse yet. It's definitely not showing excellent precision and id personally be unhappy but id have tried a bunch more projectiles by now. I brought 12 options to try in the 223 and 22 creed started at the preferred options and went through the list.

Buying that box of federal blue box to try and establish benchmark accuracy might be looking like good idea to the financial department right about now.