Thread: .243 load development part deux

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Buying that box of federal blue box to try and establish benchmark accuracy might be looking like good idea to the financial department right about now.

It's very anecdotal to be fair. Not many people buying blue bix federal and doing large sample testing. Ive had it shoot average and good. If @Zedrex is happy to reload he will be able to reload far better and more consistent (factory lot to lot consistency is often terrible) ammo. He'd better to just start picking projectiles that would work in his twist and that he would be happy to shoot. Even "premium" projectiles are cheap compared to factory if he has the time to reload.

Originally Posted by Stocky

It's very anecdotal to be fair. Not many people buying blue bix federal and doing large sample testing. Ive had it shoot average and good. If @Zedrex is happy to reload he will be able to reload far better and more consistent (factory lot to lot consistency is often terrible) ammo. He'd better to just start picking projectiles that would work in his twist and that he would be happy to shoot. Even "premium" projectiles are cheap compared to factory if he has the time to reload.

Think what Micky is suggesting is if dont shoot that get rid of it.
The cost alone in range trips, loading, and internet bandwidth in this case all adds up.
Especially for an inherently accurate calibre to be so bad.

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@Stocky thanks for compiling the data from my results, so from what you've written when we're talking MOA grouping we're using the max spread rather than the mean? That being the so then yep there's an issue......this rabbit hole has no end!
What is the best approach to rule out all shooter variables? Ledslead or similar? Looking at the targets there seems to be room to get the zero more dialled as to me it looks like I'm high and left....thoughts? Or to put it another way what grouping size would you expect to see with a dialled in zero, good shooter and verified good load?

Has a flat biased bullet, been tried yet, some rifles don't shoot boatails well,
I've got one 6mm Remington, 90 AB, 6" pattern, 90 TGK same, SST 4"-5", 90 eldx kinda ok, 1.5", 85gr Speer 1.5-2", 95 B-tips, Ok. 1". 75gr, Serria 3/4" 5 shots, cheap as chips 100g Hornady or Serria flat base, 3/4"5 shots.
Probably at the point, someone else should put a few shots threw, and see if its rifle, or shooter or a combo off.

Originally Posted by southernman

Has a flat biased bullet, been tried yet, some rifles don't shoot boatails well,
I've got one 6mm Remington, 90 AB, 6" pattern, 90 TGK same, SST 4"-5", 90 eldx kinda ok, 1.5", 85gr Speer 1.5-2", 95 B-tips, Ok. 1". 75gr, Serria 3/4" 5 shots, cheap as chips 100g Hornady or Serria flat base, 3/4"5 shots.
Probably at the point, someone else should put a few shots threw, and see if its rifle, or shooter or a combo off.

The SST I'm using is flat base, the one factory ammo I tried WITH a boattail (Fiocchi) was absolute shite in this barrel!

Originally Posted by southernman

Has a flat biased bullet, been tried yet, some rifles don't shoot boatails well,
I've got one 6mm Remington, 90 AB, 6" pattern, 90 TGK same, SST 4"-5", 90 eldx kinda ok, 1.5", 85gr Speer 1.5-2", 95 B-tips, Ok. 1". 75gr, Serria 3/4" 5 shots, cheap as chips 100g Hornady or Serria flat base, 3/4"5 shots.
Probably at the point, someone else should put a few shots threw, and see if its rifle, or shooter or a combo off.

85gr sierra with 2209. All dead. LOL.

That's a good idea, "renting" a bunch of other sticks, I hadn't thought of doing it that way, buy, try on sell if it's not good and as you say, cheaper than going full custom. I have arranged to try another .243 down at the range next weekend alongside the Franchi and we'll see what that shows up....question is, will I get to 30 pages?

Originally Posted by southernman

Has a flat biased bullet, been tried yet, some rifles don't shoot boatails well,
I've got one 6mm Remington, 90 AB, 6" pattern, 90 TGK same, SST 4"-5", 90 eldx kinda ok, 1.5", 85gr Speer 1.5-2", 95 B-tips, Ok. 1". 75gr, Serria 3/4" 5 shots, cheap as chips 100g Hornady or Serria flat base, 3/4"5 shots.
Probably at the point, someone else should put a few shots threw, and see if its rifle, or shooter or a combo off.

Dear God no!!! Actually more flat bases have been tried maybe we try some boattails.

Originally Posted by BRADS

Think what Micky is suggesting is if dont shoot that get rid of it.
The cost alone in range trips, loading, and internet bandwidth in this case all adds up.
Especially for an inherently accurate calibre to be so bad.

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Your right if everytime we got an inkling to tinker we put that moeny in a jar we could buy a new rifle pretty often. But theres some value to the learning even if it is "i should have sold this thing sooner"

I am struggling that someone who can't shoot well off a bench has enough technique to achieve anything with this. To be brutally honest, you have to shoot well enough for any of this to be testing the rifle or load. All I see here can be explained by very average shooting.

Mean radius is a better indicator with lower sample size as it considers all the shots in the group but it also means nothing on its own it needs to be used to predict a larger result it also still suffers but stabalises much faster (around 30-50 shots vs hundreds). So you want it way lower than the traditional 1moa group size. I aim for 0.1-0.15 MRAD for a factory rifle (0.3-0.45moa ish) gathered from a large sample group. @gimp has done a few good posts and there is a few decent podcasts. The reason i used group size was its the most common and there's decent expected variation ranges published to see if there's anything significant happening.

As for shooter variables I would stay away from a leadsled, they put a massive load on the system ie you would rather run into a padded wall than a solid brick one. They also dont replicate what you will do it the field. I dont think shooter influence is that significant here. If i can give a rifle to someone completely untrained and they can go 5 for 5 at 400m with some bulk factory speer 223 soft points with minimal training in a scope they struggle to get close enough too then the training aspects not as big as people feel short of major jerking of the trigger or obviously being unstable at the shot. (I did the above this evening with a guessed BC with my partner who's shot very little as the longest previous shot was 250m. She also made a 1st round hit at 525m with the 6.5 creed in a 6pound unsuppressed rifle before she decided she didn't like the recoil at all.)

I honestly think in comfortable positions shooters maybe contribute 0.25moa maybe 0.5moa in any situation they dont actively know they did something wrong (ie pulled the trigger whilst the cross hairs were not on target). I also find i tend to shoot better when i use a black target with a white POA and dial up to hit the black so i dont know how I'm doing and cant stress myself out. If you feel you pressed the trigger nicely cross hairs were on target when the shot broke id right yourself off. A way to check is get a mate to load or not load a round and get you to shoot a target so sometime they load one and sometimes not but so you dont know. You will know quickly if your flinching or yanking the trigger

I hate to say it but my view is either the rifles got a serious issue, or the barrels shit, or you have gotten unlucky and its just picky and it dislikes your first couple choices of projectile. If your attached then idd buy a few 15 packs of samples from gunworks and load 10 of each a grain under max book loads then shoot them all round robin if none shoot then get someone to go through your rifle top to bottom.

My checklist is to check free float, bedding, scope mounting, scope, crown. If they appear good and nothing behaves just have to weigh up if its worth owning a gun on that precision.

If you find yourself up Christchurch/North Canterbury way your welcome to shoot a rifle of mine with a known precision and see how it goes to put your mind at ease its not you/shooter issues. Ive shot 3-4 inch groups feeling great but thinking I must suck then jump on a really hard to shoot gun and punch out a tiny group.

Just ignore the negative guys who aren't contributing anything usefull. I have a Savage 6 CM here that you are welcome to borrow. It's a proven rifle that shoots just on MOA ( real 10 shot groups) and will come with enough ammo for an initial test. There is really goof factory ammo avaliable and while I haven't tried it, it's not a "fussy" barrel. PM me if you prefer.

Take @Tentmans offer or i can take you to the handloaders here in Chch if you can make it up in an evening with a few rifles we can even reload whilst at the range (massively useful to quickly answer the questions that shooting brings up).

This might be a bit out of left field and it is only a suggestion, nothing more.

Grab your .22 and a couple of boxes of standard velocity ammo and track down your closest small bore club whether it be a NZDA one or otherwise, introduce yourself and join in.

It's more fun than you might think and you will be able to gauge where you are at with you own ability. It will also improve your marksmanship regardless, and it wont cost the earth to do.

With any luck you may make some contacts that will be able to help you get the results your after.

Originally Posted by Tentman

Just ignore the negative guys who aren't contributing anything usefull. I have a Savage 6 CM here that you are welcome to borrow. It's a proven rifle that shoots just on MOA ( real 10 shot groups) and will come with enough ammo for an initial test. There is really goof factory ammo avaliable and while I haven't tried it, it's not a "fussy" barrel. PM me if you prefer.

And Ammo Direct have 6mm Creed ammo on special.

https://ammodirect.co.nz/online-shop...eld-x-hornady/